Grandmas Marathon registrants go home DEVASTATED!!

In bulk, race medals cost max $2.00 each. T-shirts about $2.50-5.00.

Liability insurance maybe $10,000. But that’s probably way too high.

9 full time employees? Things are tough all over plus if you aren’t putting on a race you certainly don’t need anyone. OK well maybe they need an accountant to help them spend all that cash from the poor suckers who registered?

Grandma's Marathon is the welfare race or crazy spending for quite a few individuals.

Below is a small recap of their 2017 IRS 990 form.

Their expenses seem to be working to make themselves better off than a huge community event.

Meet Director Salary $114,385 + $16,692 in other

Express mail $27,725 that is a lot of next day air for a race.

$131,077 for officers, directors, trustees, paying for a few friends

$562,853 other employee salaries, Lot of money for one race of the year.

$13,613 going to conventions

$455,680 other (not race, not prizes, just other)

$1,461,000 in cash and savings accounts

spent over $105,000(Lost money) putting on 4 races where people still paid entry fees. It would be unique to see how you spend that much money losing money on races just to have them OR paying people to have money losing races.

I have managed a few races.

Security is only paid when it happens.

First Aid is only paid when it happens.

Course rental is paid when it happens.

If you are paying for this in advance, you might want to get a new event director.

Link at

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/411573627/09_2019_prefixes_41-45%2F411573627_201809_990_2019092016675394

Thanks to you and Co-flounder.

PS

I've already made people mad at me here for asking questions and was going to let this go but I just can't. Over $700,000 in salaries for a once a year event is beyond imagination for me. I read where they have a staff of nine. What the heck do nine or ten people need to do all year in order to put on one race?

This is exactly what I suspected. Thank you for finding this information. Everyone should be OUTRAGED at the THIEVERY going on here.

I don't see specific dollar amounts either. And my hunch is because that (XX,XXX entries with $X per entry being given to charity equals X x XX,XXX dollars given to charities) isn't how they think of things. It looks like they fund their internal youth program (noted above) with excess revenues from the race (is that considered charitable giving if it's internal? Maybe, maybe not... I'm not sure what accepted non-profit accounting would say here, or if there even is any standard), and with the rest they support local youth sports organizations and a couple other causes, with probably a certain amount also put away for a rainy day. I can see how, in order not to misrepresent any giving or publicly announce a "giving" total that may not be impressive because some of their good works (including spending extra money directly on participants' experience at the race) may not count, they just wouldn't announce a total (and certainly not a $X/entry total, as that may vary greatly year-to-year).

I'm not sure what gives you this impression. It may be true and it may not. And whether it's true may also depend on how you account for certain things (as noted above. . . does running their own free youth program count as giving? Are only the hard programmatic costs giving, but not the staff or administrative costs?). If they were directly giving away a hugely impressive dollar amount annually they would probably shout about it from the rooftop, so I understand a certain degree of skepticism that they might not be doing that, but it also seems like an organization with such a good reputation in the running community should be given at least a small benefit of a doubt, whether they post an impressive top-line annual direct giving total or not (your mileage may vary on how far that benefit of a doubt gets them in this current or any other situation--it seems like it gets me further, and you less so).

That $186k number is what other charities have generated by using Grandma's as a fundraising platform. The charities got bibs and runners with those bibs fundraised for their partner charities. (Worth noting, as from your posts above I'm not sure you know this: Races like Grandma's support a lot of external charities in this way. I don't know whether it's more or less than they do through direct giving, but I know it's a substantial portion. And I know for at least one small non-running non-profit that I volunteer for charity bibs at major endurance sports events are a major annual funding source.) That's not direct monetary charitable giving from the race, and possibly you can discount it as "charity" that comes from Grandma's if you believe that if Grandma's didn't exist these non-profits would just find another equally-valuable fundraiser, but that's a little "invisible hand"-y for my taste (but again, YMMV). It seems like something that Grandma's should get some "credit" for to me.

It's a firmly-held belief of mine that everyone thinks everyone else's job is easier than it is, so unrelated to any of the charitable/cancellation handling issues, this is the sort of comment that always immediately causes me to push back as a reflex. In this case, I just looked up the number of employees at the first few races/organizations I could think of that I consider similar (acknowledging that there are surely substantial differences in how these organizations run that would only be known from the inside; all numbers are pulled from a page that lists their staff on their respective websites):

Houston Marathon- 12 employees

Twin Cities Marathon- 19 employees (plus several interns)

CIM- 11 employees

Pittsburgh Marathon- couldn't find page listing staff

Indianapolis Marathon- 9 employees (plus a Race Director who looks like he works for/owns a separate event management company)

Big Sur Marathon- 6 employees

So it seems like Grandma's 9 employees is pretty well in line with other similar organizations. Might all of these organizations be similar scams? I mean, sure? I guess? But that seems unlikely to me (and also seems like an indictment of all of their boards of directors).

Also worth noting is that, while to the national running community these organizations are known solely/mostly for their marathons, they all (Grandma's included) put on multiple other races and programs throughout the year (Grandma's race schedule can be found here:

). So, leaving aside that figuring out how to navigate an organizational crisis while the entire world is disrupted probably gives these employees enough to do right now, I think that during normal times (and possibly also even right now) these employees are working year-round on these various projects and not sitting there twiddling their thumbs (any more than any of us do at our jobs). But again and one final time, YMMV on those thoughts, too.

HRE, I'm not sure if I'm one of the people you think your pasts have made mad? I'm not mad, and I'm trying to approach your posts with a spirit of generosity, but it seems to me like you're using performative ignorance and your genuine amiability to make the rather nasty suggestion that Grandma's is a self-dealing scam that doesn't justify its non-profit status. While I think a healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing, it feels like your posts go well beyond that, and the motivation for that puzzles me. Maybe I'm being naive, but it feels like you're being overly cynical (and using this crisis which people are unhappy with their handling of as an opportunity to further erode their confidence in the organization as a whole, in even less-trying times).

Lastly, neither of us has all the answers, but it feels like you could try a little harder to find them rather than come on here and ask leading questions to which answers or at least a substantial amount of relevant data are readily available in literally the first place you should think to look for it online (Grandma's own website). That way your leading questions would at least be more informed, and thus more credible.

(Also, I acknowledge that I'm ascribing motivations to you that I can't know. If you genuinely don't know anything about this, I'm sorry for getting those motivations wrong, but you seem like a guy who's pretty knowledgeable about running in so many of your other posts that near-complete ignorance on this topic would be shocking to me).

My PS- Holy crap, sorry for writing a book, everyone. I clearly have way too much time on my hands during this pandemic.

Mountaineer wrote:

Meet Director Salary $114,385 + $16,692 in other

$131,077 for officers, directors, trustees, paying for a few friends

Unless these are coincidentally two things totaling the same number, you double-listed this.

Mountaineer wrote:

$562,853 other employee salaries, Lot of money for one race of the year.

As noted, they put on several other races and youth programs throughout the year, and have staff numbers that seem broadly in line with similar organizations.

Mountaineer wrote:

spent over $105,000(Lost money) putting on 4 races where people still paid entry fees. It would be unique to see how you spend that much money losing money on races just to have them OR paying people to have money losing races.

Putting on events that lose money because they help promote fitness and create a vibrant local running community? Seems almost. . . charitable.

I get that how non-profits spend their money should be subject to scrutiny, but what are the substantial and specific concerns that arise from the above?

None of this is to say that folks can't be angry about how they handled this cancellation/refund issue. But trying to say that they're not a real non-profit is a bridge too far for me.

It seems like what name I can use here depends on what computer I'm using. I did go to Grandma's website and couldn't figure out where anything is. So what Co-Flounder put up was really interesting.

Am I cynical? Well, pretty much everywhere in life if you take money from people on the promise of providing a product or service at a later date then fail to provide what's promised you are bound to return that money to those people and it's problematic if you don't. Saying that you can't return the money because you've pretty much spent it all doesn't make anything less problematic nor does saying that if I return that money I'm out a job and so are all these people who work for me. I don't know why this does not apply to people putting on a road race. If that's cynical then I suppose I am at least partly.

And we acknowledge here all the time that if you're a professional distance runner who is not one of the very best in the country you're probably going to be semi-impoverished because distance running is a sport that doesn't generate a lot of revenue. But it does generate a reasonable amount as we can see from what it costs to enter popular racers. So when I see the money that goes to staff salaries, nearly a half million going to "other," another indeterminate amount going to charities, all of this dwarfing money that goes to the actual athletes, yeah, I do get cynical. The standard response here would be that all those things are necessary to have people around to put the event on and maybe that's true. But I'd love to see a day by day description of what all those people actually do, not just at Grandma's but at every race that has a similar number of employees. And if you've got all those employees why do you need to pay another $130,,000 plus to officers, directors, and trustees?It just seems very wrong to me that you've got all these people making money from a race but you can't get prize money any further down than the top 15 or 20.

Okay, I'm cynical. But I think the cynicism is justified when I see this sort of thing happening in the sport. I wasn't cynical in the days when races were put on by local clubs who charged enough to cover expenses and put any extra money to doing things like sending club members to out of area races or when race directors were guys like Browning Ross who directed races in his free time to develop the sport. I get that's it's much different now and if someone can make a living as a race director or race employee more power to them. But if you've made the sport into a business I think you have to assume the risks of being in business and take the lumps if you can't provide the product you sold.

The sad thing is that runners allow themselves to continue to be scammed and taken advantage of by these greedy race directors. Trail race directors are just as bad.

700k is insane, but that's besides the point.

They are saying they need to continue paying those employees exorbitant salaries for the next 3 months DESPITE NO RACE.

Many of the expenses WERE NOT INCURRED.

As another poster mentioned, they probably spend $5 dollars total per person for shirts and medals.

Close to half a million dollars in "other" is sketchy.

And at the time (2017) they had almost 1.5 million in the bank.

For this meet director to say they can't give a refund is the lie of the century.

You need to be more skeptical of facts that bolster your argument; that $130,000+ number is the reportable compensation (salary plus benefits) to the Executive Director, who is an employee; it's listed in two different places on the form because that's what's required of them in their tax returns. If the Board of Directors--which is supposed to be volunteer--were receiving $130k+ in reportable compensation, that would raise huge red flags.

Prize money not going more than 10-15 deep is a new (and esoteric) complaint. And per their website (

), you're right, they don't go that deep. But they do go 10-deep in two different races and shell out over $125k of prize money, which to me feels like you're barking up the wrong tree to get angry at Grandma's about this. Also, to say a race must have substantial prize money to be a good or worthwhile race may be true for you, but shows a very narrow conception of what a race would be.

Also, I'm not sure how giving/having given more in prize money would help them pay people back right now. These are disconnected issues.

Brownie was absolutely one of the founding fathers of distance running and a patron saint of the sport in this country. We all owe him a huge debt of gratitude and the sport would of course benefit from having more people like him involved. But to say that only volunteers should be involved (which I know isn't what you're saying, but is where your argument could lead if you're not careful) is patrician and elitist.

Also, and to circle back to the issue at hand and not for nothing (and to show my bias), I care about those nine employees' jobs more than I care about people with disposable income to spend on a marathon getting their money back. To prioritize doing the "right" thing (although I don't concede that if, for example, runners have benefited over the years from lower entry fees than Grandma's would have had if they hadn't had their "no refunds" policy that now that policy is in play the "right" thing to do is for Grandma's to refund, assuming organizers made a good faith effort to put on the race which I see no reason to doubt) over protecting folks' livelihoods is an idea we can ill-afford right now, and comes down against labor in a way that is all too common and that I'm not comfortable with.

If race directors making very low six figures are your definition of a villain, you’ve got a lot to learn about life.

If you’re making six figures in Duluth then you’re living very well indeed.

Race directors working for a non-profit making 6 figures who won't refund thousands of runners entry fees for a race that never took place is like one step below Hitler.

I know that prize money and refunds are not connected issues. But a lot of my cynicism is because $125,000 in prize money in a race that's showing the kinds of dollar amounts their 2017 IRS form does seems unacceptably low to me as does the business of going only ten deep with prize money. eObviously that's my opinion but whose opinion would you expect me to have?

Maybe I can dig around somewhere and find out exactly what employees of a big road race do in the times when the race is months away. But I believe I will stand by my opinion that if you're making a living putting on a race you're in business and need either to deliver your service or give refunds to people who've paid for the service if you don't give it. If that means these people lose their jobs they can get unemployment compensation and eventually go back to work for the race when money for next year's edition starts coming in.

I do appreciate what you've posted here.

If anything warranted an in-depth Letsrun.com expose...those number though...

$100k+ for a non-profit race director. I wonder if he considers himself a charitable guy, probably pompously states ‘ I work for a non-profit’.

I really don’t care how much the race director makes, as long as they deliver a product at a price that I am willing to pay, but once you don’t deliver the product and claim poverty, that’s when I take issue.

This would seriously be so much more palatable if Grandma’s stated that due to the lowered work load (because there is no marathon) they were reducing their employees hours to 50% and paying them 50% salary for the next 3 months, just to show the solidarity of the frustrating situation., and to help make them financially viable in 2021 and help set up an emergency funds (or heaven forbid buy secondary market insurance for any future event cancellation). Then come July 2020, back to 100% hours and pay for their employees in order to ramp up for 2021.

My employer has cut pay by 40%, and lowered our white-collar ‘privileged’ job to 4 1/2 hours per day....and we are STILL delivering a service....

Shameful.

You should look at what most race directors make for events of this size that are not part of a novelty race series ie Rock N Roll/Color Run/Chocolate Run. I'd bet the average salary is $200k or more even for non-profit races .

I think what it comes down to is that they cant offer a full refund because they have SOME expenses already incurred. They HAVE to give out tshirts and medals to fulfill the customers entry contract. If they dont give out tshirts and medals, they HAVE to give out full refunds. Now they need their employees to help sort tshirts and medals and the logistics of the virtual race. Probably pretty minor, but there are still logistics to it.

There math is off though. "We earned 2 million from race entries. We already spent 1 million on tshirts and salaries. We are losing 1 million from revenue on race weekend. Theres the 2 million"

Um, they were going to earn 3 million, now they are only earning 2 million and spent 1 million. Now they have 1 million in unspent money.