Double "Threshold" workouts, in Depth

As previously mentioned, 99% of letsrun posters do not and should not do this training. There are so many other things that you can do first before double threshold workouts. If you are going to implement this training you absolutely need a blood lactate meter. If you read the old posts on this board discussing Marius Baaken threshold training he explains how important it is to run just below threshold (in that 2.5-3.5 lactate range) for this training to be effective.

I feel like so many runners do their threshold and tempo training too fast to begin with. It’s pretty slow. Getting a lactate meter to feel it out would be quite helpful.

Working Stiff wrote:

Fugu wrote:

Building off this, does anyone know what the Ingebrigtsen base phase Looks like?

The post made by Horizon with the presentation of the Swedish runner's training is a carbon copy of what we know about the Ingebrigtsen base training phase:

M - AM: 10K, PM: 10K + Strides

T - AM: LT Workout, PM: LT Workout

W - AM: 10K, PM: 10K

Th - AM: LT Workout, PM: LT Workout

F - AM: 10K, PM: 10K

S - AM: 20 x 200m Hills

Su - AM: 20K

This, like Kalles training, looks to be about 100mpw. The workout days total about 24 miles. About 12 each session with a 3 mile warmup/cooldown unless they cut those shorter.

How long can they handle this base phase for? & then how does their training change in season and for peaking?

I believe one of the first changes that gets made is the saturday hills become track work. 12x300 I believe Is typical for them

VO2Max is not the best predictor for anything other than a VO2Max competition.

Just to be a bit jerk here O:-) They often do LTx2 the day after long run and have two easy days before next 2 lt

What do the LT workouts looks like?

HenrikS wrote:

What do the LT workouts looks like?

If we are talking about the Ingebrigtsen's the typical sessions are:

- 5 x 2K or 6 minutes with 2 minute rests

- 10 x 1K or 3 minutes with 1 minute rests

- 25 x 400m with 30 second rest

These sessions aren't done based on pace but on lactate levels which are measured during the sessions. Because of this the paces will be different depending on the day and the lengths of the reps.

Working Stiff wrote:

HenrikS wrote:

What do the LT workouts looks like?

If we are talking about the Ingebrigtsen's the typical sessions are:

- 5 x 2K or 6 minutes with 2 minute rests

- 10 x 1K or 3 minutes with 1 minute rests

- 25 x 400m with 30 second rest

These sessions aren't done based on pace but on lactate levels which are measured during the sessions. Because of this the paces will be different depending on the day and the lengths of the reps.

Thank you, how do they measure blood lactate levels?

HenrikS wrote:

Working Stiff wrote:

If we are talking about the Ingebrigtsen's the typical sessions are:

- 5 x 2K or 6 minutes with 2 minute rests

- 10 x 1K or 3 minutes with 1 minute rests

- 25 x 400m with 30 second rest

These sessions aren't done based on pace but on lactate levels which are measured during the sessions. Because of this the paces will be different depending on the day and the lengths of the reps.

Thank you, how do they measure blood lactate levels?

This kind of thing. Though many do the same kind of training on effort. Doing it this way is just hyper-specific

Cheers

Ingebrigtsen training is fascinating. Obviously not doable for an average adult hobby jogger.

Food for thought:

What would happen if you tried a similar order of workouts, but just running once per day and spreading the Ingebrigtsen week out over 2 weeks? Have people tried doing threshold type stuff on back to back days? Could you use it as a way to change up training a bit?

peekay wrote:

Ingebrigtsen training is fascinating. Obviously not doable for an average adult hobby jogger.

Food for thought:

What would happen if you tried a similar order of workouts, but just running once per day and spreading the Ingebrigtsen week out over 2 weeks? Have people tried doing threshold type stuff on back to back days? Could you use it as a way to change up training a bit?

I've been to a seminar where Marius Bakken spoke of his training. He's the one who the Ingebrigtsens took a lot of inspiration from. He said the reason he did it in doubles on a single day is because it actually wore him out more doing it in singles. Doing it in doubles made it possible for him to recover better and still get in the amounts he did.

Experience is hard bought wrote:

I've been to a seminar where Marius Bakken spoke of his training. He's the one who the Ingebrigtsens took a lot of inspiration from. He said the reason he did it in doubles on a single day is because it actually wore him out more doing it in singles. Doing it in doubles made it possible for him to recover better and still get in the amounts he did.

Well that's quite obvious.

It's like asking yourself, what's easier to recover from, a 2.5 hour 20 mile long run or 2x10 mile 1h15m runs on one day?

So by nature, doing 6xMile in morning + 4xMile in the evening will be easier to recover from than one monster session of 10xMile. The stimulus will be worse, but there is no point in setting a stimulus so big that will get you injured or severely impact recovery and the training in the following days.

Do you kill conversations by saying cringy things like this in real life too or is it just here?

Then why is it so uncommon to do this? You are so arrogant dude. Every reply is you acting like you know everything and that nothing is new to you. Even when you are clearly wrong.

Like Gjert being inspired by Mike Smith.. like come on dude. Mike Smith is not known outside the US, why wouldn't Gjert rather take advice from someone like Bjørnar Ustad Kristansen (8:14 steeplechaser) and Marius Bakken? US coaches don't know everything, I know everyone on here is very enamored with Tinman, but there are others who have produced way better results.

The problem with all this long slow running is eventually you need to be able to run FAST. That's why it's fundamentally flawed. It can work for extremely talented athletes that already have great natural speed, such as the ingebritsons or Drew Hunter (though it's still far from optimal). But for most, you will inevitably hit a MASSIVE PLATEAU.

Physiologically the 5k and 10k are MIDDLE DISTANCE events. Bekele didn't get to run 4:03 pace for a 5k (12:37) without doing TONS OF SPEED.

Also, you misunderstood what Bakken meant. He said at that seminar that by doing the workouts over several days, he became more tired than by doing it in doubles. So an example would be:

day 1: AM: 15k run - PM: 14x1km threshold

day 2: AM 13k run - PM: 8x5min threshold

versus

day 1: AM: 14x1km threshold - PM: 8x5min threshold

day 2: AM: 15k run - PM: 13k run

In that scenario Bakken would be more tired by the first example even though it is the exact same amount of work. He tested this out and found it was better to do double threshold to get in the work. He was very scientific and experimented a lot with his training.

It pays to be humble sometimes and not immediately dismiss what others are saying, you can always learn something new. However, I fear your attitude prevents you from this.

I think caution needs to be implemented when looking at their training. Fall into the trap of "magic training".

Especially with the brothers, their father has coached them from such a young age and they have all trained together for such a long time.

They are putting up good results, however they are also still getting beat by other runners doing more typical training.

Schumacher has produced a bunch of sub 13 runners.... What NOP does with their balanced two week cycle basically hitting everything year round and evolving it throughout the year.

tin can man wrote:

The problem with all this long slow running is eventually you need to be able to run FAST. That's why it's fundamentally flawed. It can work for extremely talented athletes that already have great natural speed, such as the ingebritsons or Drew Hunter (though it's still far from optimal). But for most, you will inevitably hit a MASSIVE PLATEAU.

Physiologically the 5k and 10k are MIDDLE DISTANCE events. Bekele didn't get to run 4:03 pace for a 5k (12:37) without doing TONS OF SPEED.

Grant Fisher and Hunter did very limited amounts of speed work (800m pace and faster, and I don't just mean the 4x200m Tinman sometimes does at the end of workouts) and were two of the best HS kids in recent years.

In the end, the athletes at the top all are extremely talented. Give them a training program that keeps them injury-free and progresses them safely over time and boom - you got great performances.

Bekele could have trained 23432 different systems, he would have always been super fast. You don't know how much talent he has, that guy could literally stop running for 5 years and drop a 14 min 5k like it's nothing.

The double threshold makes sense for elite runners on a high level. Would I recommend it to the average HS kid in the 16/17s 5k range? No. Would I recommend it to the weekend 5k warrior running 17-20 min? No. Might it be appropriate for an elite 15 flat girl, like Schneider or the Ingebrigtsens, around 13 flat? Yes, definitely.