Blah blah blah blah blah. Does thermoregulation even exist. Or did I just make it up?
Blah blah blah blah blah. Does thermoregulation even exist. Or did I just make it up?
There has been debate ad nauseum about performance trends so I recuse myself from that issue, particularly when all my views are already in some older threads. My point now was only theoretical and followed from Iljukov's research and premises and is this:
If the expected blood doping boost is closer to 1 % for some people vs. 4 % for others because of the higher amount of total hemoglobin in the former folks, the reason must be that the "1%" bodies can't take "full" advantage of the extra red blood cells.
If the extra RBCs give less benefit, it is also plausible because of the law of diminishing marginal returns that most of the benefit is gained with the first handful of extra RBCs (5 %?), an increase which shouldn't be unachievable with altitude training.
I don't claim that majority of athletes have this problem, only that it follows from Iljukov's premises that it should be more common with athletes who have high total HB in relation to body mass (ie. high altitude residents).
Here is a pre-print of the study:
round and round and round with the bs wrote:
bannnedd i got wrote:
meds dont really work, its all just "beliefs" according to gary
Does thermoregulation work?
Yes, but not like you think it does, Jon.
Thx, I actually managed to get a copy from Sergei Iljukov himself (I am not his close buddy-buddy, but I do know him, both of us being Finnish citizens and researching blood doping) and read it quickly a few weeks ago.
I might get some details wrong, but one can always find methodological issues in comparing post ABP-data (2013-17) with pre-ABP data from a country where the future of athletics was very dismal after the Stepanova revelations (2014), Olympic boycott etc, one just must question whether blood doping was the only ingredient missing in the 2013-2017 performance data, or did the best endurance talent go somewhere else in the post-ABP years.
((B/A) - 1) x 23.6% = Increase in speed from aerobic power
B = New Hct
A = Old Hct
example
((50/42) - 1) x 23.6% = 4.4% increase in speed from aerobic power
Which event someone is doing obviously will make a big difference. If 50% of the power in an event is from the aerobic system then one would expect to see a 2.2% increase in speed. That's like a 1:50 .0 - 800 runner dropping to 1:47.6.
Or a marathoner going from 2:10:00 to about 2:05:00 (not all power in a marathon is from aerobic system)
round and round and round with the bs wrote:
bannnedd i got wrote:
meds dont really work, its all just "beliefs" according to gary
Does thermoregulation work?
lol
Aragon wrote:
Thx, I actually managed to get a copy from Sergei Iljukov himself (I am not his close buddy-buddy, but I do know him, both of us being Finnish citizens and researching blood doping) and read it quickly a few weeks ago.
I might get some details wrong, but one can always find methodological issues in comparing post ABP-data (2013-17) with pre-ABP data from a country where the future of athletics was very dismal after the Stepanova revelations (2014), Olympic boycott etc, one just must question whether blood doping was the only ingredient missing in the 2013-2017 performance data, or did the best endurance talent go somewhere else in the post-ABP years.
Indeed one might.
rekrunner wrote:
Aragon wrote:
Thx, I actually managed to get a copy from Sergei Iljukov himself (I am not his close buddy-buddy, but I do know him, both of us being Finnish citizens and researching blood doping) and read it quickly a few weeks ago.
I might get some details wrong, but one can always find methodological issues in comparing post ABP-data (2013-17) with pre-ABP data from a country where the future of athletics was very dismal after the Stepanova revelations (2014), Olympic boycott etc, one just must question whether blood doping was the only ingredient missing in the 2013-2017 performance data, or did the best endurance talent go somewhere else in the post-ABP years.
Indeed one might.
Go all in on data if it fits your theory, reject it entirely if it disagrees.
Lol, yes. One would think that - if the benefits were negligible - all these blood-doping running studies wouldn't consistently result in benefits between +1 and +5% but rather scattered between -2 and +2%.
Plus, with recent papers demonstrating some 44% being drug cheats, and 15 - 20% blood dopers, enabled by the corrupt IAAF, we know what scientists and athletes have learned. And yes, this includes high altitude super stars from Kiprop to Jeptoo to Sumgong and Aden's athletes.
Maybe one could have had this discussion in 2010, but in 2020? Ridiculo.
casual obsever wrote:
Lol, yes. One would think that - if the benefits were negligible - all these blood-doping running studies wouldn't consistently result in benefits between +1 and +5% but rather scattered between -2 and +2%.
Plus, with recent papers demonstrating some 44% being drug cheats, and 15 - 20% blood dopers, enabled by the corrupt IAAF, we know what scientists and athletes have learned. And yes, this includes high altitude super stars from Kiprop to Jeptoo to Sumgong and Aden's athletes.
Maybe one could have had this discussion in 2010, but in 2020? Ridiculo.
I like how research is showing that classic 4% i noticed yrs ago as the gain people were getting....imagine all the hassle i got from people and 3 handles being banned.....suck it b*tches!
casual obsever wrote:
Lol, yes. One would think that - if the benefits were negligible - all these blood-doping running studies wouldn't consistently result in benefits between +1 and +5% but rather scattered between -2 and +2%.
Plus, with recent papers demonstrating some 44% being drug cheats, and 15 - 20% blood dopers, enabled by the corrupt IAAF, we know what scientists and athletes have learned. And yes, this includes high altitude super stars from Kiprop to Jeptoo to Sumgong and Aden's athletes.
Maybe one could have had this discussion in 2010, but in 2020? Ridiculo.
But you know there is no data showing this? Or not enough to come to any conclusions.
I can hear the captain of the Titanic being told there's an iceberg ahead and he asks for data to prove it.
Who says the Bowerman team isn't doping? They have grey area research helping them.
Would you concede that a basic 1% increase at elite level in a massive changer? 3:33 to 3:31, 13:01 to 12:53
Subway Surfers wrote:
Would you concede that a basic 1% increase at elite level in a massive changer? 3:33 to 3:31, 13:01 to 12:53
It doesn't have to be 1%. In the Doha men's 1500m final there were 6 runners who finished within the space of a second, from 2nd place to 7th, at 3.31x-3.32x. That's a margin of less than 0.5%. What runner wouldn't ask for another second - at least - if it meant the difference between a medal and nothing?
Subway Surfers wrote:
Would you concede that a basic 1% increase at elite level in a massive changer? 3:33 to 3:31, 13:01 to 12:53
Concede.....thats like “belief” or a fallacy lolz.....4% is the deal. People not making that gain must not be doping as hard lol
2-3 seconds faster than your natural best 800
6-9 seconds faster than your natural best 1500
13-15 seconds faster than your natural best 3000
28-30 seconds faster than your natural best 5000
58-60 seconds faster than your natural best 10k
3-4 minutes faster than your natural best marathon
But some demand more data.....even though WR, olympic and WC golds SHOW THEM PROOF
Anavar has always been an underrated steriod. When I was a teenager I was coached by a top female sprinter who raced FloJo and the East Germans in the 1980s and she adamant that Anavar was rife then, she said it was was the ENERGY steriod, "they were all using it" back then.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Subway Surfers wrote:
Would you concede that a basic 1% increase at elite level in a massive changer? 3:33 to 3:31, 13:01 to 12:53
It doesn't have to be 1%. In the Doha men's 1500m final there were 6 runners who finished within the space of a second, from 2nd place to 7th, at 3.31x-3.32x. That's a margin of less than 0.5%. What runner wouldn't ask for another second - at least - if it meant the difference between a medal and nothing?
Exactly 1 second consistently over 1500m is massive yet Rekrunner, Jon Orange, Renato and Aragon all play down the gains but any gains are a game changer.
bannned i got wrote:
Subway Surfers wrote:
Would you concede that a basic 1% increase at elite level in a massive changer? 3:33 to 3:31, 13:01 to 12:53
Concede.....thats like “belief” or a fallacy lolz.....4% is the deal. People not making that gain must not be doping as hard lol
2-3 seconds faster than your natural best 800
6-9 seconds faster than your natural best 1500
13-15 seconds faster than your natural best 3000
28-30 seconds faster than your natural best 5000
58-60 seconds faster than your natural best 10k
3-4 minutes faster than your natural best marathon
But some demand more data.....even though WR, olympic and WC golds SHOW THEM PROOF
Ramzi
Mourhit
Kiptum
All support your claims
I'm willing to bett he wouldn't have won without it.
https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1092191/tsegu-receives-four-year-ban-epo-test
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
2017 World 800 champ Pierre-Ambroise Bosse banned 1 year for whereabouts failures