'We Can Now Estimate the Effect of Blood Doping'

Casual Observer, I can tell you (without entering in the merit of all the discussion, you already know what I think) that in 95% of cases in Kenya athletes start doping (not only blood, but also with some steroid) or because ignorance (the case of medicine containing steroids that are in the normal distribution for normal people for normal sicknesses) or because based on belief, since behind them there are not doctors or experts able to explain in scientific way the reasons of doping.

So, the reality is :

1) They read in newspapers (or in Websites as LR) the magical effects of doping

2) They are alone with their coaches (absolutely not knowing anything about the argument) and they decide to risk, BECAUSE OF THE OVEREVALUATION OF BLOOD DOPING on the performances)

3) They take EPO or similar, BELIEVING can produce wonderful effects

What happens after that decision, is that they start to training more, increasing the global volume of mileage and the intensity of their fast runs (something that BEFORE doping supposed not possible to do), and for this reason they start to have, not Always, some improvement.

Please, don't think the best African athletes can have some science under their choices.

So the only athletes who avail themselves of "science " are clean athletes? With the level of doping in Kenya (and elsewhere), that makes for a lot of ignorant athletes.

But how can you know what dopers do in Kenya when you don't work with any of them, or their coaches? They won't be coming to you for advice. You're simply speculating.

And you are not speculating when suppose everybody dopes under "scientific" proves ?

Do you think to know Kenya and Kenyan athletes better than me, that during the last 22 years spent more than 10 years in Kenya ?

So, without proves, only other people do "speculations", but your are confirmed facts ?

Renato, you can't see the forest for the trees.

What an American sprinter n. 20 in the world can earn from his athletic activity is 20 times bigger than what an African athlete in the same position can earn.

For sprinters, many more opportunities of competing, more general interest, and very bigger contracts with Technical Companies (Nike and Adidas primarly).

When the yearly contract for one WR holder from Kenya was about 100,000 USD, the yearly contract for a sprinter who NEVER won anything but reached the final in WCh (but was from US) was about 700,000.

The average income from the prizes of road races for the most part of Kenyan doped athletes is between 10,000 and 15,000 USD. They have to give 15% their management (so, 10,000 are only more 8,500), and have ALL the expenses at their own charge (everything they spend for training : fuel of the car, food, medicines when sick).

They don't have another job. They live in rural areas, and what they have, when already lucky, is some piece of land where can produce the famous "potaoes" of Tim Cheruiyot.

So, at the end of everything, for the lucky Kenyan able to earn 15,000 USD in one year of activity, what remains is no more than 5,000 dollars at the end of the season.

Do you think they can pay for having some "science" behind them ? Or, also, do you think the main management can risk their reputation for having from one athlete 1,000 dollars in one

year ?

I don't want to discuss again about doping, my position is clear. But about you, whose main activity seems to fight from the keyboard with Rekrunner for personal "supremacy" in this thread, can be better can speak only when you know something for sure, not basing your belief on "facke news" that are widespread in this website.

yo renato, you should really chill out, all this extra stress on your poor feeble mind aint so good with all this corona floating around.

ps....i cant wait till you go home devastated, and it will happen

Renato Canova wrote:

The average income from the prizes of road races for the most part of Kenyan doped athletes is between 10,000 and 15,000 USD. .

Wait, you know which ones are dopers?

No, but I know which one are NOT dopers. And among them there are the most part of WR holders and winners of medals in WCh and Olympics.

Renato Canova wrote:

No, but I know which one are NOT dopers. And among them there are the most part of WR holders and winners of medals in WCh and Olympics.

Not the 1500-10 000 WR holders. You know Farah was clean? Edris?

Dear Mindweak, I'm already in my home, and of sure I'm not devastated.

And about my feeble mind, my mind becomes automatically very strong, everytime I read what you write, because I feel a Genius compared with a donkey….

Renato Canova wrote:

And you are not speculating when suppose everybody dopes under "scientific" proves ?

Do you think to know Kenya and Kenyan athletes better than me, that during the last 22 years spent more than 10 years in Kenya ?

So, without proves, only other people do "speculations", but your are confirmed facts ?

We are all speculating here, and you just as much as the rest of us - if it is true you don't have anything to do with those who might be doping.

However, the wide-ranging evidence suggests doping is an increasingly sophisticated process with a lot of science that has gone into it. It's scientists who make the drugs, for a start, and physicians who dispense them, while coaches and trainers can measure their benefits. Furthermore, the fact that doping greatly exceeds the numbers of those caught shows it is far from being an amateur practice. It is enabled by professionals for professionals.

Renato Canova wrote:

No, but I know which one are NOT dopers. And among them there are the most part of WR holders and winners of medals in WCh and Olympics.

If you haven't worked with them you can't know that they are not dopers.

Renato Canova wrote:

Dear Mindweak, I'm already in my home, and of sure I'm not devastated.

And about my feeble mind, my mind becomes automatically very strong, everytime I read what you write, because I feel a Genius compared with a donkey….

hahaha yeah ok buddy.....how about your bro rosa? hows his doping regime going? one day soon a kenyan will go down and spill the beans, and that will be such a glorious day. but nice try on the insult, just be careful with that karma old man....your country is going to sh*t right now, i wouldnt be so excited if i were you

Do you want to know my list of athletes that I consider clean (and in several cases I KNOW they are) ?

Among the WR holders :

Kenenisa Bekele (5000 - 10000)

Geoffrey Kamworor (HM)

Eliud Kipchoge (Marathon)

Saaeed Shaheen (steeple)

Moses Mosop (25,000 - 30000m)

Florence Kiplagat (HM)

Among the WCh and Olympics in the last 15 years :

Tim Cheruiyot (1500m)

Caleb Ndiku (3000m indoor)

Abel Kirui (Marathon)

Greoffrey Kirui (Marathon)

Stephen Kiprotich (Marathon)

Joshua Cheptegei (Cross - 10000m)

Dorcus Inzikuru (steeple W)

Faith Kipyegon (1500m W)

Hyvin Kyeng (steeple W)

Janet Jepkosgei (800 W)

Eunice Sum (800 W)

Irene Cheptai (Cross)

This doesn't mean who I didn't list is doped, but that I don't know them well and I can't give any opinion about what I don't know

casual obsever wrote:

Morning Aragon. That is a hypothetical question, which implies it's possible that blood-doping provides only a negligible boost.

In any case, a major difference is that rekrunner calls the decision to start blood-doping based on belief, instead of convincing facts. Another major difference is that he has routinely argued against all points you listed instead of accepting them - well to his credit, it appears he has stopped arguing against point 1.

Perhaps I don't fully understand the syntax of my non-native language, but a rare belief originates in a vacuum (with angel Gibriil whispering into your ear what is true and what is not).

I haven't seen rekrunner disputing the possibility that the belief that it is beneficial to blood dope might be based on the tenets I mentioned. I actually see him mostly criticizing the accuracy/relevance of the first five points from the endurange running viewpoint. I think there are questions how much the points convey information about how much blood doping benefits running performance of (particularly altitude trained) elite males.

1- If "the wide-ranging evidence suggests doping is an increasingly sophisticated process with a lot of science that has gone into it", do you really think the most part of users are athletes with a very little income, that for having a real support from "doping scientists" have to pay more than what they can earn in one season ?

2- Coaches and trainers can't measure the benefit, for the simple reason that there are coaches without any ethics using doping (and in this case they don't know where their athletes, if training clean, could arrive), and coaches with deep ethic, who only know the effect of training, and of course can't know where their athletes could arrive WITH doping.

3- It's true that doping greatly exceeds the numbers of those caught, but this doesn't show that is far from being an amateur practice, and is enabled by professionals for professionals.

Italy is one of the Countries with the higher number of doped. Do you know why ? Because we have the Anti Drug Police that, investigating against the groups selling doping, is for law authorized to do antidoping tests to all people frequenting gyms, if they have the suspicion that the gym is a place where doping can be sold. This means the 99% of doping cases in Italy are from amateurs, or not agonists who takes doping only for showing better muscles on the beach.

Put in your mind that Kenyan athletes running 2:08 / 2.27 (W) in Marathon, ARE NOT PROFESSIONAL. They don't have a contract with any Company, can run one competition per year, and in the most part of cases DON'T HAVE AN OFFICIAL MANAGEMENT.

They are FARMERS, who train in big groups without a personal program, and sometimes are lucky to find some solution for going to compete in Asia or South America in small Marathon or HM.

These athletes, when honest, have the same behavior of every normal Citizen when sick : they go to the pharmacy with the prescription of a doctor, and, because the most part of medicine in Africa come from Asian Countries, in all these medicine there is some small percentage of steroids (from that reason, a lot of banned for nandrolone and similar steroids).

Other athletes, if want to cheat, ask simply, individually, to some friend which type of doping can use for improving, having "faith" in what they hear or read.

This is the reality in Africa, reality that all people speaking about doping in LR obviously don't know, thinking every part of the World can have the same situation and the same mentality.

The only ones you can credibly say were not doping were those you trained. Who of them did you train?

Look at the wonderful solutions decided from your Country…. and after some day tell me if you too can be excited !

Sorry, but in this moment I don't think possible to distinguish who is in the sh*t and who is not.

Maybe both of us are in the sh*t, with the difference that I already know, while you have still to discover its taste….

Good luck, my friend !

PS : I like donkeys, and in Kenya they are very friendly with me and my athletes !

Kenyan and other African runners, if they dope, are using the same drugs that athletes use in affluent countries. These drugs have in a variety of forms been available for decades. They are widely used because athletes - and anti-doping - know they are effective. EPO, blood-doping, steroids etc. work just as well for Kenyan farmers as they do for the most highly-paid professional athletes in the world. The pros are just better at getting away with it.