What is CHSAA (Colorado) doing about the private school recruiting game?

I think transfer rules for amateur athletes reek of a slave owner mentality. Parents should be free to send their kids to the best program they can find. Team scores in track and cross country are kind of a joke anyhow. They are purely individual sports.

joedirt wrote:

Team scores in track and cross country are kind of a joke anyhow. They are purely individual sports.

You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but people who believe that often find themselves not winning state titles when they should (at least on the basis of individual talent). The Peak to Peak girls were a classic case in point. They did manage to win two of four state titles when they had their legendary surge in talent moving through, but, honestly, they got beat by better teams the other two times around. For several years, Air Academy cross country had all kinds of talent moving through, yet only won one state title to show for it. Simply stated, there were better teams, though not more talented teams, out there.

I will allow your point is more true in track than cross country, probably largely because you become irrelevant to scoring in track if you can't place in the top nine.

I’m starting to think the only path forward is less rules from CHSAA and not more. They need to extend the official seasons and get rid of the Sunday contact rule and allow high school coaches to work directly with younger athletes during the school year. Maybe the answer is open enrollment for sports like we have for academics too. If they want to level the playing field they need to empower high school coaches that are more inclined to follow the rules to compete against the schools that are willing to bend and stretch them.

Club sports is making high school sports less and less relevant every year as they aren’t encumbered by the ridiculous and antiquated high school rules.

There is no question that recruiting is taking place, both in private and public forums. It seems CHSAA has no clear way to solve this problem. The Valor coach did respond to previous posts about this exact issue, but no matter the explanation there's no question recruiting/luring is taking place. And yes, I'm aware that private schools recruit for their entire student body, but it's obvious that many put a high priority on boosting their athletic teams. Often this creates an uneven playing ground.

With that being said I know for a fact that programs like Niwot are recruiting/luring student-athletes. Both directly and indirectly (REAL Training) they have pulled in a number of athletes from outside of the Niwot boundary over the past few years. Does one think all this talent was simply homegrown within in the boundaries of Niwot, CO (pop. 4000)? I'd be curious to see what percentage of their NXN team actually reside within the schools boundaries. 50%?

I don't think there's any easy fix to this and I see it getting more profound before a solution is figured out. There seems to be a few that argue that it doesn't matter, but I suspect many are coaches/parents whom have already taken advantage of this flawed system. Overall I'm a bit torn on the issue. I agree kids should have the ability to choose a school/program of their liking, but coaches/schools should NOT be recruiting these students. It's obviously not much fun watching these state meets, etc when you know many of your area student/athletes are loading up at one program. Seems no one (except Miami fans) was excited when LeBron James took this talents to South Beach to team up with Wade and Bosh. The only ones happy with the current situation are those who a squashing the competition at the state meets and waltzing into NXN.

Benji25 wrote:

Assdfs,

Respectfully, I think we're comparing apples to oranges when we try and parallel the high school systems of east coast schools vs. Colorado.

This possibly is true - Maryland track and field is a small sliver of talent that takes place in Colorado high schools at the present moment. Look at our top teams in the state. At all levels, they are filled with transfers. This trickles all the way down to 2A schools.

While this is really unrelated to the discussion and I'm not sure why you feel the need to slight another state, a simple inspection of milesplit rankings from last outdoor seasons shows the 2 states pretty evenly matched. MD has the edge if anything. They also have roughly equal student population size.

Just to be clear High School athletics does not exist to satisfy the desires of spectators. This is not the NBA. It’s about the kids (or should be) and allowing free transfers is probably in the best interest of the kids, all the kids. I’m a coach that has been on the receiving end of other teams poaching talent, and I still think it is in the best interest to allow kids to transfer teams if they want. The flip side is I have seen very talented high school athletes’ chances at playing in college absolutely torpedoed by crappy high school coaches, kids in those situations should have some options.

Show me the data. I’d welcome it.

Just, wow.

We have certified high school coaches on here in agreement with this option. Welcome to days of one-sport only athletes. Just, sad.

School classifications 1A, 2A, 3A, etc. are based upon student population regardless of whether they are public or private. Athletics are more competitive when they are open to all schools, not a separate league like the old parochial league from back in the 1950s. On the whole, private schools have been declining as they have been replaced in the market by charter schools (when the judge ruled that popularly elected vouchers were unconstitutional it kept private schools at a distinct disadvantage in attracting students as parents are forced to pay tax dollars into a school system that they do not benefit from). Typically (except for Regis and Valor), private school athletic venues pale in comparison to their public school counterparts (my high school had no track, no football field, a run down old gym and a weight room in an old modular building with lots of rust, yet still I was able to win a state championship and become a Division 1 athlete). A lot of places in Colorado do not even have a private school option due to the monopoly that public schools hold in almost all reaches of the state. A number of the private schools you are ridiculing also give kids scholarships from economically depressed areas and often times a better life than they might have enjoyed had they attended their failing local public school. Ultimately track and cross country are individual sports, there is no reason you cannot train kids up to be competitive with any of the kids in the state. Private school kids tend to do better because they have parents who are bought in (and typically married), but there is often times more raw athletic talent outside of the suburbs that just needs to be coached up.

Joey D,

You make some great points, and thanks for the insight. I agree with a large part of your outlook on the division and inequality of schooling. Tell me more about the old private league. What schools were in it?

On a separate note, I think the notion of ‘offering disadvantaged kids scholarships and a better life than failing public schools’ applies to a very, very small portion of private school students, most of which are academic driven and not athletic-based. Is it a great opportunity for a low income family with a stellar child?.... absolutely. None of us can argue against that, and kudos to that kid. That kid is being given an incredible opportunity. That’s the surface level marketing of the American Dream put forth by such schools though. Thats also what you’ll hear coaches say about their schools to entice kids and families. The underlying truth.... these schools are recruiting top talent by cherry picking from the entire front range. Let me know how many disadvantaged kids run for Real Training or the Valor Track Academy beginning in 7th-8th grade. I’d love to see the number of free and reduced lunch kids at any of these schools.

While you make some great points that I can appreciate, comparing ‘failed public schools’ to the inequality of high school athletics taking place is two very different debates. You made it as a state champ because YOU were resilient, because you had the fight, and because you wanted it. You were willing to be loyal to your teammates with less than average facilities, and you learned to fail. You learned more from losing than winning. What part of the last few descriptors translates to ‘being sheltered by your parents on a team of all-staters.’ Those aren’t qualities private school athletes are learning. The sad part is.... they know it.

CO Coach wrote:

I’m starting to think the only path forward is less rules from CHSAA and not more. They need to extend the official seasons and get rid of the Sunday contact rule and allow high school coaches to work directly with younger athletes during the school year. Maybe the answer is open enrollment for sports like we have for academics too. If they want to level the playing field they need to empower high school coaches that are more inclined to follow the rules to compete against the schools that are willing to bend and stretch them.

Club sports is making high school sports less and less relevant every year as they aren’t encumbered by the ridiculous and antiquated high school rules.

One issue with coaches working with athletes year round at the HS level is who pays the coach for the off season? Also, it would perpetuate the early specialization and year round single sport approach that the clubs are very guilty of.

What if 50% of all Niwot students reside outside the boundaries and that is the same percentage as the runners.

Also, one of the things I like about CO is that there is way more freedom to choose a school that is a good fit for a student than in many other states. If a school has a good math program and attracts kids to it for that reason, why should sports be any different?

I know one of the top runners in the state shopped around. Now this is different than the coach recruiting, but the end result is the same.

The Parochial League lasted until 1965. It had the following schools: Annunciation, Cathedral, Holy Family, St. Francis, St. Joseph, Mullen, Mt. Carmel, St. Mary's of Colorado Springs, St. Mary's of Walsenburg, Machebeuf and Regis. Less than half still exist. I find it somewhat ironic that you rant about Holy Family, as traditionally, the athletic programs at Holy Family were very bad. On the flip side, I have seen very good athletic programs come from very economically depressed areas where there is good community involvement and knowledgeable coaching. Stop complaining and worry about getting the most out of the athletes you have and more will seek you out. Start a club team of your own. Yes, Valor has an excellent club program, but they are not the best distance club program in the state. In my opinion, the best distance club program is Kokopelli in Colorado Springs (4 XC youth national titles this past fall) and a lot of their kids do multiple sports, not just run. There is ebb and flow in high school sports. Programs rise and fall and coaches move. Eventually someone will knock Valor off their perch, but it will only occur if those programs distinguish themselves through their own efforts.

The coach to parent ratio on letsrun seems heavily weighted. Rarely, do we ever hear from an actual parent about the recruiting process from the kid/parent perspective? I'm sure it's not what y'all want to hear but we (parents) recruited our kid's high school coach. Not the other way around. The program our kid was participating in was geared toward the coach's ego at the expense of the athlete. Not only had the coach not updated his training methods in decades he (and she) also honestly admitted that they didn't like standouts and would be reluctant to alter a workout or give any sort of accommodation to a kid that wanted more. What would you do as a parent? Well, we know people in the running world and we found the best high school coach we could. We made a few phone calls asked a ton of questions and in the end, transferring was the best decision we ever made. We wanted a program that our kid would thrive in. It bothers us that every once in awhile this topic seems to keep popping up. The coach is villainized when in actuality he had zero to do with the recruitment process. The idea of focusing on the concept that all these successful teams have a coach sneaking around trying to build teams through illegal recruiting tactics isn't logical. What is logical is that the athlete and parents realize that they are in a bad situation. They realize very quickly that their kid will not have the opportunities they want if they stay with the initial program. They weigh their options, talk to other running coaches in the community and then they put feelers out to coaches that have strong reputations. The program feeds itself because more kids in similar situations want to train with other highly motivated kids with a top-notch coach. The programs get a reputation for success and savvy parents with kids in 8th grade or kids in similar mediocre programs see success in the transfers. Now other athletes relocate/transfer and hence the mega team. These programs maintain their domination because parents get smart and realize that a school change can mean the difference between running in college or not. So instead of focusing on the idea that underhanded recruiting is at large maybe we need to focus on how some high school coaches are failing our kids.

joedirt,

Great points. Thanks for the insight. I appreciate the background.

Parent Transfer,

Great perspective, and one that we need to hear more of. That being said, please refer back to my original question on the chain. We are comparing private school recruiting to, well, schools that don't. Yes, it is absolutely in your best interest to send your son/daughter to work with a competent coach. That is much different than cherry picking that takes place by big time private school programs. Valor Christian (a school that has players on their roster spanning 130 miles) just beat Fossil Ridge (a big time 5A school) by 41 in the girls basketball Elite 8 this weekend. 41 point victory in an Elite 8 game. Valor's worst player was better then Fossil's best kid. If this would be an exciting, and equal, game for you to watch as a parent, then I think we have a bigger problem at hand.

Benji, I get where you are coming from with the unfair playing field. Valor is easy to hate. Lots of $ which equates to entitlement. All I'm saying is that it would be naieve and simplistic to think that a coach is recruiting causing the unfair playing field. Private schools understand that sinking $ in their athletic programs indirectly recruits students. It's nothing more than a strong business model. The private schools need to offer more academically, athletically socially etc for parents to fork out that kind of pre college $. I don't know anything about Valor and their BB team but all I'm saying is that it most likely isn't the coach cherry picking athletes but the parents cherry picking strong team/ coaches. My original point is back to instead of focusing on the mega teams how do we support kids in less than optimal programs so they don't feel the need to transfer in the first place? Only 3-5% of kids will run in college. How do we support those kids that want more? The kids that maybe don't have the parental or financial commitment that end up falling through the cracks never reaching close to their potential in a " running is fun" type program? First generation athletes tend to fall through the cracks because parents frankly don't understand running and have blind faith that their high school coach is some sort of expert. Athletic directors tend to not want to rock the boat because 95% of parent reviews are positive That is because 95% of xc participants are not going to be running another race after high school so a weak program is a non issue. We will never be able to compete with the resources private schools can throw down but more importantly how do we support the little guy?

I'm sure this is just confirmation bias, but I have never understood why public and private schools compete against each other for state championships.

In the primary states where I've lived and gone to school private schools have their own championships, entirely separate from public schools. They will compete in regular season and invitational settings, but not for championships.

It just seems like it solves the issue that private schools are an entirely different ecosystem.

I disagree. We are only hurting our public school kids by diluting the field. Humans race better against faster humans.