Trans woman & OTQer Megan Youngren's amazing marathon progression.

SuperWoman wrote:

I don't care what someone chooses to call themselves or identify as. I just think it's ridiculous that USATF and school districts around the country are pretending that transitioning from a post pubescent man to a woman doesn't have distinct athletic advantages.

and therein lies the crux of the matter.

the rest of the discussion is just window dressing.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

How do you know all this? Do you know what she ate for breakfast this morning?

It's right in the interview with Chavez if you actually read it.

Chavez calls it "testosterone-blocking medication" but there's no such thing.

There's only one protocol in the USA for non-ops and it's a banned diuretic. Her body is still producing high male levels of testosterone. The drug simply washes some of it out like a water-pill and then a couple hours later she's already building back to full level.

If she knows all that and thinks that's fair, she has a very twisted view of what running is like for other women. If she doesn't know that, well hopefully someone will show her the science.

This is why the rules used to require women to be fully transitioned. I am not sure why they were changed but they are not even being enforced as is so it's all lip-service.

The USATF site continues to show her entry status as "info needed" and declaration as "pending."

https://www.usatf.org/events/2020/2020-u-s-olympic-team-trials-marathon/status-of-entries

I hope they don't let him run, he wouldn't make it anyway, but it is TOTALLY UNFAIR to the REAL WOMAN.

The Way this is going By The Los Angeles 2028 Olympics this could happen.

The Women's Olympic

In Lane 1 in the Women's Laura who was Larry Last year.

In Lane 2 is Michelle who was Michael Last Year

In Lane 3 Roberta who was Roberto last Year

In Lane 4 Jo Ann who was Joseph last year

in lane 5 Maria who was Mark last year

In Lane 6 Christina who was Christopher Last Year

In Lane 7 Laura who was Larry Last Year

in Lane 8 Paula who was Paul last year

The Olympic 100

Oh darn I put laura down twice

Replace it with Natalie who was Nathaniel last year

making a big deal about this , but I doubt that she will make an impact in the trials. People are extrapolating data and assuming she will do a 2:30 marathon based on her past progression; She may run a 2:35-2:36 range but not contending;

remember the fuss about June Eastwood for Montana this past August--she ended up being 60th at NCAAs and recently did a 4:45 mile at the Husky Classic for 15th...maybe there will be a bigger impact in a few years-time will tell.

paul72 wrote:

making a big deal about this , but I doubt that she will make an impact in the trials. People are extrapolating data and assuming she will do a 2:30 marathon based on her past progression; She may run a 2:35-2:36 range but not contending;

remember the fuss about June Eastwood for Montana this past August--she ended up being 60th at NCAAs and recently did a 4:45 mile at the Husky Classic for 15th...maybe there will be a bigger impact in a few years-time will tell.

I never said or thought, she would make it, it just opens the door to pretty much no REAL WOMEN left in Sports.

douglas burke wrote:

I hope they don't let him run, he wouldn't make it anyway, but it is TOTALLY UNFAIR to the REAL WOMAN.

The Way this is going By The Los Angeles 2028 Olympics this could happen.

The Women's Olympic

In Lane 1 in the Women's Laura who was Larry Last year.

In Lane 2 is Michelle who was Michael Last Year

In Lane 3 Roberta who was Roberto last Year

In Lane 4 Jo Ann who was Joseph last year

in lane 5 Maria who was Mark last year

In Lane 6 Christina who was Christopher Last Year

In Lane 7 Laura who was Larry Last Year

in Lane 8 Paula who was Paul last year

That is pretty impressive coming from a group of less than 1% of the population.

If you're referring to the SI article, you are doing some serious reading between the lines. It doesn't match what your saying.

Sure it possible that she has the tenacity and skill of Patti Catalano Dillon but is it likely? No. That's why she is a famous runner and former world #1 with a notable back story. What's more likely is that she would otherwise be a solid, but unremarkable, 2:30 dude who is now being slowed down about 10-15 minutes by hormone therapy.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

That is pretty impressive coming from a group of less than 1% of the population.

Yeah, it's not like an even smaller part of the population (intersex) managed to occupy the entire "female" 800m podium the last Olympics.

Avocado's Number wrote:

And I would guess that you can find a number of qualifiers in this year's Olympic trials who dropped from three-plus hours to sub-2:45 within a year or so. That kind of improvement, by itself, shouldn't cause anyone to suspect anything inappropriate or unfair, nor does it suggest that 2:30 is just around the corner.

That's not comparable. "Megan" dropped more than an hour in one year. Could you please name one female OTQ athlete who did the same (I mean real women, no "chicks with dicks" like Megan calls herself)?

Kenai River Marathon 9/30/18 Youngren, Megan (F27) 4:04:26

California International Marathon 12/8/19 Youngren, Megan (F28) 2:43:52

This is exactly why USATF still hasn't confirmed that "she" can participate, barely 10 days before the Trials.

Allowing women with penises to compete would set a huge precedent.

Consider where she will be in 2024 consider in this progression. A runner who went from 3:06 to 2:43 within less than a year, has real potential to run under 2:30 in 4 years. That will be the first time that I can think of, that an openly trans woman has a shot at qualifying for an Olympic team spot in US distance running. You can bet this will be a major topic of debate when those trials come around if she remains healthy.

RRRR wrote:

A runner who went from 3:06 to 2:43 within less than a year,

Correction: she went from a 4 hour marathon to 2:43 in just over a year. While "she" was supposedly "transitioning".

I don't see what's wrong with this progression tbh. In 2018 I ran Big Sur marathon (April) to a personal best of 3:02 and that same year Chicago (October) in 2:45. Prior to that I've been into distance running for 5 years - since 2013 and had a marathon PB of 3:06

I'm a straight white male and at my current fitness I can be competitive at local races, from placing in age groups all the way up to winning. Should I be placed under suspicion for PEDs or something?

Coincidentally, I've been following Megan on Strava since before she became a controversial figure. She's been running mileage similar to mine but with like 20x elevation gain and sometimes doing workouts that would have killed me like running full marathon distance for the weekly long run at a steady pace. She also failed to break 2:45 in several attempts before finally nailing it at CIM. I've been admiring her progress and dedication without knowing she was transgender and now that I know I don't admire any less.

j_ps. What she did would be more like you going from your 3:06 to a male qualifying time of 2:19. You are a guy as you stated. Elite male times are usually about 20 minutes faster than women. That's the point its easy for a guy to go from 3:06 to 2:45. It's a huge challenge for a woman.

In your original post, you said, "Getting 20 minutes faster in about 8 months and qualifying for the trials is simply not possible for someone with basically no running background." And you later explained that "basically no running background" actually meant something like no D1 competitive career or something similar. But however that statement is interpreted, it's just not close to being true, and it suggests something sinister -- indeed, "simply not possible" -- when someone has that kind of improvement. That demeans the accomplishments of a lot of people.

I chose Patti as an example because she was such an obvious case of someone whose ability improved much more rapidly and much farther than the kind of improvement that you're claiming to be impossible. If I wanted to rummage around old running logs, race results, and runner bios, I could present many more instances of runners who have done what you apparently think is impossible, but no one in this sport should seriously be doubting that such cases are fairly common.

Whether Megan Youngren should be allowed to run the trials, under the current or some allegedly better set of rules, may be an interesting question. My own expectation is that, however this particular case plays out, the rules will be adjusted in ways that allow XX athletes to win virtually all women's races, if only because there is vastly a greater constitutency for XX competitors than there is for trans women. If things appear to go too far, steps will be taken, much as they have been in the Semenya case. Idealistic bromides about inclusivity will lose out to the real demands that drive the evolution of sport.

SuperWoman wrote:

j_ps. What she did would be more like you going from your 3:06 to a male qualifying time of 2:19. You are a guy as you stated. Elite male times are usually about 20 minutes faster than women. That's the point its easy for a guy to go from 3:06 to 2:45. It's a huge challenge for a woman.

If equivalent male times are usually about 20 minutes faster than woman's times (the difference is demonstrably less at the highest levels), a women's improvement of 3:06 to 2:45 would be similar to a man's improvement of 2:46 to 2:25, and nowhere near 3:06 to 2:19.