Veganism, difficult to succeed for most runners who run with intensity

I've rarely seen a thread here started by a vegan trying to convert meat-eaters or claiming that a plant-based diet is superior, and yet practically on a daily basis I see a thread trying to convince everyone that going vegan will kill you in the long run.

Okay, I'll bite. I'm 42, I've been running competitively since HS, been vegan for about 5-6 years. I've run PRs in the 15k, 10M, half and full marathon all in the years since. I made the change (and continue to forgo animal products) for purely ethical reasons. All of my blood work is fine. My B12 is fine. I ran 3800 miles last year and 4200 the year before. I don't get injured and sick all the time and my hair isn't falling out. I'm not sure why people think you can only get protein from animal flesh. I also don't get why so many meat eaters get so butt hurt because other people don't want to live the way they do or because there are more plant-based options coming out. Yes, I know the Impossible Burger and Beyond Burger and other processed plant-based stuff aren't healthy, neither is a Whopper or KFC, just because we're vegan doesn't mean we don't want to occasionally indulge in some junk.

Y'all can relax. As much as I'd love for it to, animal agriculture isn't ending any time soon.

Marc Reuther

Germany

1:44 min indoor 800 m recently

He is vegan - but not 100% strict (read about some exceptions if invited etc.)

Excellent post. Thank you.

browski wrote:

Yes, I know the Impossible Burger and Beyond Burger and other processed plant-based stuff aren't healthy, neither is a Whopper or KFC, just because we're vegan doesn't mean we don't want to occasionally indulge in some junk.

What is the evidence Impossible and Beyond Meat are unhealthy?

Every last place finisher is a meat eater.

Heart disease is basically the number on failure of death in the USA. All are meat eaters.

Everyone I see struggling and failing in races eats meat.

UltraDude wrote:

browski wrote:

Yes, I know the Impossible Burger and Beyond Burger and other processed plant-based stuff aren't healthy, neither is a Whopper or KFC, just because we're vegan doesn't mean we don't want to occasionally indulge in some junk.

What is the evidence Impossible and Beyond Meat are unhealthy?

They're pretty obviously high in sodium and saturated fat. I don't think they're horrible but they are highly processed. You're probably better off eating real plants and not eating impossible patties 3 times a day. Comparing them to any other food that's not great for you (normal burgers, hot dogs, etc.) is pretty accurate.

Impossible Whoppers can be unhealthy if they are flame broiled or over cooked in a microwave due to glycotoxins. And the mayo. But if you tell them to just "warm" it in the micro, and skip the mayo, then I don't have any problem, other than its not whole food with the normal mix of micronutrients.

browski wrote:

I've rarely seen a thread here started by a vegan trying to convert meat-eaters or claiming that a plant-based diet is superior, and yet practically on a daily basis I see a thread trying to convince everyone that going vegan will kill you in the long run.

Exactly. Why such animosity towards vegans here? They're doing what makes them happy.

While getting a sufficiently nutritious diet as an endurance athlete is definitely more difficult with dietary restrictions, the market for vegan foods is exploding. Vegans still generally can't nom out on fast food (and most non-vegans probably shouldn't either), but if careful, vegans can certainly maintain adequate diets without ingesting animal based products.

While the vast majority of super elite endurance athletes will probably never practice veganism because of the obvious restrictions, there's no need to criticize those who try. That said, those who look into the diet should seriously educate themselves before taking the leap.

As a vegan, I can easily consume 80g of protein/ day without trying. That is enough. Too much protein is just a waste, and shortens your life.

RyecorDone wrote:

As a vegan, I can easily consume 80g of protein/ day without trying. That is enough. Too much protein is just a waste, and shortens your life.

Exactly. Plus I guarantee our micronutrient intake is far superior.

UltraDude wrote:

browski wrote:

Yes, I know the Impossible Burger and Beyond Burger and other processed plant-based stuff aren't healthy, neither is a Whopper or KFC, just because we're vegan doesn't mean we don't want to occasionally indulge in some junk.

What is the evidence Impossible and Beyond Meat are unhealthy?

That's what a lot of people seem to not understand. Just because it's "made out of plants" it doesn't make it healthy. I just googled the list for the Impossible Burger:

Impossible Burger ingredients list​​​: Water, Textured Wheat Protein, Coconut Oil, Potato Protein, Natural Flavors, 2% or less of: Leghemoglobin (soy), Yeast Extract, Salt, Soy Protein Isolate, Konjac Gum, Xanthan Gum, Thiamin (Vitamin B1), Zinc, Niacin, Vitamin B6, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12.

I use my basic rule: If you can't pronounce it, don't eat it.

All these "foods" are highly processed with a lot ingredients to make it look good and taste better but that doesn't mean they are healthy.

agree with this guy.

I think about this article quite a bit. I think the reason most people dislike vegans is because deep down, they know that vegans are making the correct ethical choice. It's also different enough from most peoples diet that there is a little bit of scariness there. Fear of the other...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/opinion/vegan-food.html

I live in the US but come from a very scandinavian food upbringing. Dairy and meat at almost every meal. It's what I grew up with and I really had to learn some new eating habits to eat less meat. It's hard to unlearn food habits learned as a kid.

I still eat meat, but I try to be ethical about it. Pay a little more for the good stuff.

As an athlete, I think the best part of eating less meat, is that is forces you to eat a more varied diet of higher quality grains and veggies. You have to put a little more thought into every meal, but the end product is more delicious. A hunk of meat can be delicious, but it can also be a little boring. I guess I just like "side" dishes more than the entree.

Running is a sport where vegans can do well in their 20s and 30s owing to the low-nutrient density keeping bodyweight low while sugar intake is high. It is like a long-term fast from the standard western diet which has roughly equal proportions of sugar (carbohydrate) and fat (mostly processed seed oils from plants). If an injury occurs, and if the athlete drops their energy output, they become susceptible to the metabolic effects of hyperinsulemia, including chronic inflammation and visceral fat deposition.

Plants don't have:

Vitamin A, B6 (Pyridoxal, Pyridoxamine), B12, D, E (Animal) F, K2, Q10. Creatine, Carnitine, Carnosine, and Taurine. Also Heme-iron, Collagen, Omegas: DHA, EPA, CLA, Cholesterol and Complete Protein (Consists of 9 essential amino acids)

Antinutrients & harmful substances in plants: Alkaloids, Alpha-amylases, Arsenics, Cellulose, Cyanogenic glycosides, Fiber, Flavonoids, Gluten, Lectins, Mycotoxins, Oxalates, Phenolics, Photosensitizers, Phytic acid, Salicylates, Saponins, Sulforaphane, Tannins, Terpenoids and etc. 99.99% of all pesticides in plant food are natural and found in organic produce too.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2217210

Ethically, veganism is equally or more destructive to animals (wildlife) and the environment as CAFO animal agriculture, (with even larger petrochemical inputs and carbon footprint) as all crop agriculture kills and displaces indigenous animals and plants completely and is indiscriminate of phylum. Their food is shipped from all over the planet with large petrochemical inputs and transport infrastructure to assure that their avocados, bananas, coffee, kiwis, quinoa etc are kept in steady year-round availability. The least harm possible would be to eat roughly one grass-pastured cow per year per person which can be milked for whole raw milk and humanely slaughtered with minimal displacement and conflict with wildlife via regenerative grazing methodology. Veganism is a product of a largely urban culture and modern media that prioritizes virtue-signalling over ethics while indulging in complete ignorance of how food is produced. It has been and continues to be unsustainable on a societal level for even a few generations and is self-extinguishing as people age and discover the deception it represents to their health and the environment.

Eat more Tofu wrote:

UltraDude wrote:

What is the evidence Impossible and Beyond Meat are unhealthy?

That's what a lot of people seem to not understand. Just because it's "made out of plants" it doesn't make it healthy. I just googled the list for the Impossible Burger:

Impossible Burger ingredients list​​​: Water, Textured Wheat Protein, Coconut Oil, Potato Protein, Natural Flavors, 2% or less of: Leghemoglobin (soy), Yeast Extract, Salt, Soy Protein Isolate, Konjac Gum, Xanthan Gum, Thiamin (Vitamin B1), Zinc, Niacin, Vitamin B6, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12.

I use my basic rule: If you can't pronounce it, don't eat it.

All these "foods" are highly processed with a lot ingredients to make it look good and taste better but that doesn't mean they are healthy.

that ingredients list is actually a lot more healthy than I was expecting. Also, the ingredients on the list that I'm guessing you're referring to are all vitamins and minerals that you need to eat or you'll die. Complicated doesn't mean bad

Reasonably serious vegan athlete here (17:xx for 5k, etc.). The real cost to veganism is time, I think. It takes more effort to plan vegan meals, especially while traveling or eating out. But I think if you're willing to put the time in, you can get meals that are basically equivalent in terms of health and nutrition to ones with animal products.

Side note: I eat oysters/clams/mussles (The term is ostrovegan, or bivalve-vegan) because they don't have brains and probably don't experience pain (or anything at all, really), and I think that's a good way to balance an otherwise plant-based diet. Oysters are good for omega-3 fatty acids and iron.

About impossible burgers and equivalent: you shouldn't eat them every day, just like you shouldn't (health-wise) eat a burger every day. You have no idea what's going into the ground beef you eat and much of it would be similarly unrecognizeable and unpronounceable.

YMMV wrote:

Plants don't have:

Vitamin A, B6 (Pyridoxal, Pyridoxamine), B12, D, E (Animal) F, K2, Q10. Creatine, Carnitine, Carnosine, and Taurine. Also Heme-iron, Collagen, Omegas: DHA, EPA, CLA, Cholesterol and Complete Protein (Consists of 9 essential amino acids)

What do you gain by lying/manipulating data like this?

Vitamin A? In meat you get preformed vitamin A, which has to be metabolized into a active form of vitamin A. Where? In the body.

Plant sources, like carrots, are extremely rich in carotenoids which are easily converted into vitamin A. Where? In the body.

Vitamin B6? Plants have the Pyridoxine form which is a lot more stable than the ones you mentioned. Bananas are extremely rich in B6.

You have zero credibility.

And by the way, why not make a "Animal products don't have" list too? Good luck getting your vitamin C from breast milk or raw meat...

YMMV wrote:

The least harm possible would be to eat roughly one grass-pastured cow per year per person which can be milked for whole raw milk and humanely slaughtered with minimal displacement and conflict with wildlife via regenerative grazing methodology. Veganism is a product of a largely urban culture and modern media that prioritizes virtue-signalling over ethics while indulging in complete ignorance of how food is produced. It has been and continues to be unsustainable on a societal level for even a few generations and is self-extinguishing as people age and discover the deception it represents to their health and the environment.

The problem is that it wouldn't be possible. The grass-pastured cow is not what most people eat and it's not possible to have that for all of the meat eaters.

What most meat eaters forget is that a lot of agriculture production is used to feed animals for meat production.Soy, corn... this is all planted for meat production.

ScottEvil wrote:

Side note: I eat oysters/clams/mussles (The term is ostrovegan, or bivalve-vegan) because they don't have brains and probably don't experience pain (or anything at all, really), and I think that's a good way to balance an otherwise plant-based diet. Oysters are good for omega-3 fatty acids and iron.

Man...these are the only things I really miss eating. I tend to agree with you about the lack of feeling, however, commercial fishing is one of the most environmentally damaging industries out there. I guess if I could catch my own oysters that would be different, but who has the time.

Antinutrients & harmful substances in plants: Alkaloids, Alpha-amylases, Arsenics, Cellulose, Cyanogenic glycosides, Fiber, Flavonoids, Gluten, Lectins, Mycotoxins, Oxalates, Phenolics, Photosensitizers, Phytic acid, Salicylates, Saponins, Sulforaphane, Tannins, Terpenoids and etc. 99.99% of all pesticides in plant food are natural and found in organic produce too.

I think this is actually something that is largely ignored and at least for me, it was after frequent antibiotics use that I realized I started becoming extremely sensitive to Oxalates and Gluten. I can no longer eat raw salads without getting bloated. I eat majority of my veggies in soups.

I think the Keto,Paleo, Carnivore is not a caveman diet but a modern response elimination diet due to changes in gut bacteria due to modern enviroment, pharma drugs, processed foods, GMOs, domesticated lifestyles, etc.