Jan Olbrecht Training for Runners

I should also add that Olbrecht has some really interesting thoughts on lactate levels, and it is similar to what I have read on the boards from Canova and his article on developing strength endurance. He talks about how you to perform at your best, you need to be able to produce a high amount of lactate while also being able to buffer lactate well at the same time.

I think I was understanding it right when he talks about how the training that teaches the body to produce and consume more lactate on its own will make your threshold weaker and that training to buffer lactate better will teach your body to produce less total lactate. So the art of coaching and designing a training plan is to optimize both. At least, that is a hobby exercise scientist with no real educational back ground got from reading his book.

This isn't adding to your discussion, but have a question: is your book on Kindle? I have the Kindle version, but have been looking for a place to buy the hard copy.

That's true. I do regular lactate testing, and after a period of hard sessions to peak and very hard races, where I set my 5k PR (16:15) my lactate test showed higher values at all stages and a much lower aerobic and anaerobic threshold (3:34/k instead of 3:26/k at 4 mmol and 4:03/k instead of 3:38/k at 2 mmol). I've only been running since 2 years and a period of racing or peaking sessions has a big effect on my threshold. Now it's even more important for me to do a lot of aerobic training, long reps, tempos and mileage to press that threshold back down and improve long-term.

I was good at racing 5k and shorter distances because I just had very high lactate tolerance - but it came at a cost, my threshold go worse and also performances over 10k. Even if I want to run a 800m in let's say 1:55-2:00, I still need to get my threshold down to 3:20/k or even faster ideally, otherwise I just can't use the speed that I got.

hill city wrote:

This isn't adding to your discussion, but have a question: is your book on Kindle? I have the Kindle version, but have been looking for a place to buy the hard copy.

Do hard copies even exist?

OP, what's your actual question here? Yes, I've read it, implemented it and am probably a lot smarter than you ;) In my experience his ideas, if you can wrap your head around them (likely going to need to read the whole book about 15x), work exceptionally well. However, if you talk to fellow runners about it they will think you are outright lying and are full of sh.t. His recommended rest periods are often much shorter than what runners are used to and that really reeeealllly throws people off that are used to 2-5 minute rest periods.

Thank you for the response... I guess my question is less specifics with applying his principles to invidual workouts or modeling his workouts (although I would love hear those specifics if you have them).

Rather it was more in the macro context of the book and his periodization and ideas around if building the aerobic capacity most specifically. He advocates against lactate steady state training (threshold type running workouts) during the majority of the training macro cycle during all of what we might call in running the base and build phase. Instead, he focuses on developing aerobic capacity (just as most runners advocate) that excludes longer threshold work for short fast work without much lactate buildup and then lots of continuous low intensity work.

Is that how you understood his idea around periodization and is that how you structure your macro cycles?

Thanks!

Oh and I bought the text as a kindle version. I saw on amazon a listing for the physical text (which I would also prefer) but it was over $100. I will say, the ideas and insights were so counter and thought provoking that it might still be worth the purchase at that price haha.

You can run sub 2:20 marathon and still not break 2:00-1:55 at 800 m

Yeah, I've read it. What is he saying that Lydiard didn't say many years before?

I heard a podcast with Olbrecht and it seemed like he basically recommended 30 seconds with 2:1 recovery, and not in high volume either. Otherwise mostly easy volume in non-peak times.

I assumed that I was not understanding his training right, since it sounded like the workouts would be like 10 x 200 at mile pace without any threshold work most of the time

peekay wrote:

I heard a podcast with Olbrecht and it seemed like he basically recommended 30 seconds with 2:1 recovery, and not in high volume either. Otherwise mostly easy volume in non-peak times.

I assumed that I was not understanding his training right, since it sounded like the workouts would be like 10 x 200 at mile pace without any threshold work most of the time

I have not read Olbrecht, but looking through this thread, it sounds remarkably similar to what Alex Hutchinson wrote about in one of his recent articles. No mention of Olbrecht specifically, but the studies sound remarkably similar to what you guys are discussing here. The tests were done on cyclists, though. And Olbrecht focused on swimming, right. I know a lot of training is transferable across those sports, but perhaps some more so than others?

What would an elite swimmer know about running?

It takes more than 8 weeks to remodel connective tissues and tendons, etc. High load fast running does that, and if you don't do enough of that, you will run slow.

As an aside, I object to his reference to the outdated notion of "lactate buffering". We burn lactate, use it as a fuel. Its not a pH issue "caused by lactate". Look up "lactate shuttle" (and not just the Cori cycle) Buffering occurs, and training helps us adapt for it, but not because of acidity caused by lactate. I know, merely a distinction without a difference.

Prefontaine91 wrote:

You can run sub 2:20 marathon and still not break 2:00-1:55 at 800 m

True, but what's your point?

There are some endurance monsters / slow-twitch monsters like that, but most 2:20 runners can run a fast 800 as well. Their aerobic fitness is on a very high level, their threshold as well. Sure, it requires around 55 flat\ 400m speed which not every 2:20 guy might have, but runners like Salazar or Reed Fischer with very slow 400m speed are exceptions. Out of all 2:20 marathon guys, probably 80% can break 2:00 right now, and 90% could if they trained for it. Then you got the few outliers who lack basic speed/talent but have great aerobic fitness.

According to Tinman calculator, the equivalent performance of a 2:20 marathon is a 1:56.5 800m.

To Olbrecht - his system, with hard and easy training, and not much work directly at threshold is actually quite similar to the one of exercise physiologist Stephen Seiler. Seiler even improved the system and has analyzed a lot of data of elite athletes in different sports, so you could say he improved Olbrecht's system (which was already very good, he was one of the pioneers in figuring out how lactate actually works).

False. Seiler actually recommends a lot of training in the 10k-threshold range. Less in the marathon pace range

People who misunderstand polarized training think it is all VO2 max or easy training but this is quite wrong

~ 1:58/4:10/14:23/29:54/1:05:55 = 2:18:06

somanytrainingoptions wrote:

peekay wrote:

I heard a podcast with Olbrecht and it seemed like he basically recommended 30 seconds with 2:1 recovery, and not in high volume either. Otherwise mostly easy volume in non-peak times.

I assumed that I was not understanding his training right, since it sounded like the workouts would be like 10 x 200 at mile pace without any threshold work most of the time

I have not read Olbrecht, but looking through this thread, it sounds remarkably similar to what Alex Hutchinson wrote about in one of his recent articles. No mention of Olbrecht specifically, but the studies sound remarkably similar to what you guys are discussing here. The tests were done on cyclists, though. And Olbrecht focused on swimming, right. I know a lot of training is transferable across those sports, but perhaps some more so than others?

https://www.outsideonline.com/2408756/cycling-sprints-workout-study

Nothing new though is it. As Hutchinson himself points out, it's just another workout, all of which, if done correctly can make you more energy efficient.

The cyclists in the study got about 5% more efficient, which is what we are all trying to achieve when we do any kind of training.

inspired Reader wrote:

Thank you for the response... I guess my question is less specifics with applying his principles to invidual workouts or modeling his workouts (although I would love hear those specifics if you have them).

Rather it was more in the macro context of the book and his periodization and ideas around if building the aerobic capacity most specifically. He advocates against lactate steady state training (threshold type running workouts) during the majority of the training macro cycle during all of what we might call in running the base and build phase. Instead, he focuses on developing aerobic capacity (just as most runners advocate) that excludes longer threshold work for short fast work without much lactate buildup and then lots of continuous low intensity work.

Is that how you understood his idea around periodization and is that how you structure your macro cycles?

Thanks!

The structure of the cycles is such that everyone works on their capacity (aerobic and anaerobic) a majority of the workouts and their power (aerobic and anaerobic) a minority of the workouts most of the year. So we may have 3-4 capacity workouts and 1 power workout every 2 weeks most of the year. Then in the last six weeks of the competitive season its normal to have 1 capacity workout and 1 power workout per week. Short rest periods are pretty much the standard year round, although there are always exceptions.

In general I would say Olbrecht’s book is one of those you can read over and over and over again, or just open to any page and read it, and you’re likely to gain more insight each time. It is filled with a massive amount of information, similar to Verkoshansky’s manuals.

Good insight and observation; that was my kind of take away. In the last three years two people have totally “rocked my outdated paradigm” and kinda vigil style training methods... Stephen Seiler and now Jan Olbrect. Interestingly, they are both not primarily runners. (Seiler - cross country skiing - and Olbrecht - swimmers.) Yes, running does require more “tissue remodeling” as one poster pointed out but the fundamental of building aerobic capacity and anaerobic capacity are the same across sports.

So back to the new paradigm, I take it now that the first rule of thumb is that the majority of training should be done below the first ventiallatory threshold with the remaining training done at a higher intensity only 10-20% of training volume, Seiler’s contribution.

Now from Olbrecht, I am taking away how to actually allocate thst high intensity work and it seems like the majority of the year focus on aerobic and anaerobic capacities then to peak focus more on aerobic and anaerobic power. So, to your example, what do those let’s say 4 workouts on a two week microcycle look like?

I am imagining the following for the majority of the year:

- 1 power workout: 4 x 8 minutes hard, 2 minutes rest (a tribute to Seiler)

-2 - 3 aerobic capacity sessions: 20 x 30 seconds controlled fast with 60 seconds rest / 200 on / 200 off

- 1-2 anaerobic capacity sessions: sets of 5 x 15 seconds all out with full recovery

How close am I to what you actually do with tour athletes? Thank you again for the insights’

I’d love to hear more of your insights on lactate testing. Even more interesting, would anyone smarter than me who is familiar with Canova and George Brooks insights on lactate as fuel be able to comment?

Olbrecht talks about lactate as a bi product of carbohydrate metabolism. Your anaerobic capacity is how much lactate you can produce and your aerobic/Anaerobic power is the percentage of max production that can be sustained, right?

I have read on these boards Canova talk about 600m time trials to produce max lactate production and then 2k repeats to measure maxLASS. He talks about good athletes being able to run super quick at say 4 mMOL lactate but also are able to produce a large quantity of lactate as well and so it can be recycled as fuel to create a “diesel” engine for the marathon.

Seems like Olbrecht though says you can not have both at the same time and so I would love to hear someone smarter than me extrapolate haha.

All of this is true.

You use a 400m or 600m all-out to check for max lactate. It is important to take readings EVERY 2 minutes until it peaks, since it can take up to 10 min post-TT to reach the highest lactate. Then it will fall down.

Now you have the following scenarios:

1) 4 mmol pace 3:00/k, 50.0 400m

2) 4 mmol pace 3:10/k, 48.0 400m

3) 4 mmol pace 2:55/k, 52.0 400m

4) 4 mmol pace 2:55/k, 48.0 400m

From 1) to 2), anaerobic abilities improved, this is unquestionable. Runner now has more power and speed. But did his aerobic abilities decrease? We don't know. He might produce more lactate now at each level and use it better as a fuel, while his aerobic abilities remained the same. So the athlete got better anaerobically and stayed the same aerobically, a good thing. He might still run a 10k in 29:00, just like before, but has a stronger kick now, and might be faster overall due to a last fast K.

From 1) to 3), Runner seemingly got better aerobically. But is it really the case? His 400m decreased significantly. A weaker anaerobic system shifts the curve to the right, which most coaches think is good, but it could be that his anaerobic abilities got worse, and that's why his 4 mmol pace is a bit better now, even tho he did not improve aerobically.

From 1) to 4), runner improved both aerobically and anaerobically. Despite shifting the curve up (more lactate, stronger anaerobic system), the 4 mmol pace still improved, so the aerobic abilities improved a lot to make up for it. That's the dream scenario, but is hard to achieve.

Magness explained these phenomenons in-depth in his book "Science of Running", and it's based on Olbrechts research.