Tuohy 9:40 3K 4:32 1500.... day after DR Sanders!

I didn't know North Rockland sent many distance kids on to college, I thought Tuohy/Morales was more like a 1 hit wonder.

Her splits in the race were 3/3/3:32, so it sure looked like she shut it down at the 2k and was no longer gutting out to get the best possible time.

She won the 1500m at county by 8 seconds, and the 3k by 1 minute lapping every participant, so there was no need for max efforts. As far as pacing at the county meet, I have no idea, but the end results are 20 seconds over "race pace" in 1500 and 40 seconds over "race pace" in 3000. The same coach/athlete have been doing these same xc/indoor/outdoor seasons since 7th grade. They surely understand which meets are real races, and which ones are cruises.

ny guy wrote:

I didn't know North Rockland sent many distance kids on to college, I thought Tuohy/Morales was more like a 1 hit wonder.

Her splits in the race were 3/3/3:32, so it sure looked like she shut it down at the 2k and was no longer gutting out to get the best possible time.

She won the 1500m at county by 8 seconds, and the 3k by 1 minute lapping every participant, so there was no need for max efforts. As far as pacing at the county meet, I have no idea, but the end results are 20 seconds over "race pace" in 1500 and 40 seconds over "race pace" in 3000. The same coach/athlete have been doing these same xc/indoor/outdoor seasons since 7th grade. They surely understand which meets are real races, and which ones are cruises.

Where are you coming up with your “race pace” numbers? Surely not her PRs from a while back when she was working with a different body right?

She raced Saturday. If not racing on Sunday, either run an evenly paced 10 minutes or run with the pack until the last 600. But slowing down throughout the race indicates that it was a race effort.

HS Phenom wrote:

Or it could be that her ceiling is now 9:20 and she was going all out in every race. We won't know until the end of the year. But that seems more likely since she ran fast here last year and all indications were that she was trying to break 9 this year.

Good lord people...is the ignorance level really this high. No athlete in any sport has a good run/game/match etc etc every time. Trying to judge any athlete, especially a high school female, on any individual performance..and then making broad comments about their future...is about as moronic as you can get.

I'm sure Tuohy's performance at Dr Sanders was not as good as she wanted. If they did not feel that she was ready to run in the 9:10 range, then she likely would not have been in the race. It didn't go her way...i'm sure she would be the first to say that. But who cares...it's one race.

But the posts on here lamenting on her 'ceiling' or regression are absolutely pathetic. I truly hope you people have no influence or authority over any young athletes.

LOLs

Her pr's with old body 2019 Mar - 800m 2:09 1000m 2:47 1500m 4:15 3000m 9:01

Her pr's with new body 2020 Jan - 800m 2:11 1000m 2:49

I'm making bold assumption that the new body works pretty much the same as the old body, so they would base her training off of her 2019 PRs 4:15 and 9:00, which was why she went out on a 9:00 pace in the pro race. With PR in 5k of 15:37 and Olympic Trials 5k qualifying time of 15:20, they have to have the 15:20 (4:57 mile pace) as the season goal for the 5k. That's where "race pace" comes from.

The naysayers view the bonk/shut down at 2k (6:01)of the pro race, as indication that she is not fit. I look at all the other data points and she that she is fit and just had a bad race.

Faster than...I agree that the Sunday pacing is odd, I'm just sure that she knew that a PR/race effort was not needed to win this county meet. (Similarly, it won't be needed to win sectionals or even states) so next max efforts will be 5k in Boston 2/28, 1600 leg on a DMR at some point as NR still does not have a qualifier for NBIN, and then whatever else she runs at NBIN in March.

Have a good weekend everyone, I'm leaving the basement for some skiing.

One last thought, let's take Nico Young:

2019 pr's 1 mile 4:10 3000m 8:13

2020 goals 1 mile 4:00 3000m 7:59 5k??? 13:59

He and his coach know what he ran last year, and they know that he has a much stronger base coming into 2020 from all world XC season. Surely they will tailor his workouts to the goal pace of 4 min mile and 7:59 3k. I realize these are fast times, but they are realistic for him and the only way to hit a 4 minute mile is to run 4 minute mile workouts.

I know he wants to focus on 3k/5k this spring, but my point is that workouts are designed to match your goals, as long as they are reasonable goals.

Good posts! Thanks for sharing your very well balanced views

runnerexpert wrote:

At this point, Katilyn Touhy knows more about training, racing, and tactics than her coach and that can be said for many top-level juniors/seniors. She could have said no to dr. sander, her team has always been first priority so maybe the idea was go out hard with the big girls on Saturday and then dial it back or maybe she wasn't feeling it and decided let's live to fight another day.

Every race doesn't need to be a PR or close to it, there are days where a different approach is warranted, last Saturday could have been one of those days. It could be one of those situations where, "its ok to say no to races" and she didn't do that.

im not so sure this is true. but it can certainly be inferred that her coach has no control over her. Her racing tactics are to go out as hard as possible, far ahead of the pack, and then hang on as fast as she can. No matter how inconsequential the race is. No matter how slow of a time is needed for the win. I don't necessarily have a problem with this as long as she is winning. but she will need to change at nc state.

ny guy wrote:

LOLs

Her pr's with old body 2019 Mar - 800m 2:09 1000m 2:47 1500m 4:15 3000m 9:01

Her pr's with new body 2020 Jan - 800m 2:11 1000m 2:49

It's not as easy as that. Last year in March she was training through for 4 years consecutively. Last year in summer she had a major injury, took several months off. Then they rebuilt her slowly, but she still isn't at her peak yet, hence the underwhelming performances.

It's not the body change, it's just the months in summer without training, and recovering from injury that set her back. Posts like this don't help, you just gonna ignite her and she will do too much again and get another injury. Just relax, give her time and let modest training accumulate over time and she will set PRs again in no time.

Your bold assumption is probably the same one she and her coach are making, which all evidence says is a faulty one. She’s nowhere close to where she was when she went 15:37 a little over 2 years ago. 9:01 a little over a year ago is now untouchable. 4:14 is a thing of the distant past even though it was only a year and a half ago.

She’s still a national class high school talent, but this girl will never break 4:20, 9:20 or 16:10 again in her life in the 1500/3000/5000. Shooting for 15:20 is going to break this girl’s spirit.

ny guy wrote:

One last thought, let's take Nico Young:

2019 pr's 1 mile 4:10 3000m 8:13

2020 goals 1 mile 4:00 3000m 7:59 5k??? 13:59

He and his coach know what he ran last year, and they know that he has a much stronger base coming into 2020 from all world XC season. Surely they will tailor his workouts to the goal pace of 4 min mile and 7:59 3k. I realize these are fast times, but they are realistic for him and the only way to hit a 4 minute mile is to run 4 minute mile workouts.

I know he wants to focus on 3k/5k this spring, but my point is that workouts are designed to match your goals, as long as they are reasonable goals.

Nico's PR's from last year are on online and show: 1500m 3:48 in early March 2019, 4:08 for the full mile in March 2019 and 8:40 in the 3200m in April going though the 3000m in 8:11.

Im not really sure what you're trying to say???!!!???

She ran a 1622 cross country 5K in October

Probably equates to a 1550 5K on the track

So don't know where you're getting your numbers from. I love how everyone just makes up these proclamations based on what ever whim their apparently feeling

I thought she had a more recent result from last week. I once ran 8:15 but can only run 9 flat today.

Stopwatcher wrote:

She ran a 1622 cross country 5K in October

Probably equates to a 1550 5K on the track

So don't know where you're getting your numbers from. I love how everyone just makes up these proclamations based on what ever whim their apparently feeling

If that was an accurate course maybe you’re right. It just seems like things have been trending towards getting slower over the past year. She did run low 9:50s for 2 mile last track season, which if she can repeat would be sub-9:20 for 3000.

I think her confidence has been shaken after her “embarrassing” (her words definitely not mine) performance at NXN and then her track results this indoor season thus far. She’ll likely overtrain the next few months, go out too fast in every race and end up questioning if being so talented is actually a blessing or more of a curse.

Yeah her 5K was a great American which is a legit nationally recognized cross-country course she set the record

And she beat Jenna Hutchins who's an awesome Runner by 30 seconds

So it was definitely an impressive time 1622 at Great American

I think she's really smart and I don't think she's going to be over training, cuz I'm pretty sure she's very focused on doing well in college

I think this weekend's efforts was planned out. Maybe a little slower than she wanted she might have been looking to do like a 9:20, then a 940 the second day but no way she was going for any records. She's looking to build for the future

Also 24091 k, 211 800, and then 932, 9:40 three K's on the same weekends. She's off to a good start this season

also her 2011 6K to finish out a cross country season was pretty impressive. I don't think she's going to be running any record this year but I think she's still going to be running strong times and hopefully staying healthy

She ran 9:01 at the same meet last year and went out on pace to have a shot at bettering that but clearly doesn’t have that sort of fitness.

As for overtraining, she has consistently run further and/or faster in her workouts than her coach has asked her to and has always laughed it off. She’s shown a tendency to go out very hard in races and then hang on.

If she and her coach wanted to play it smart they’d have had her run just fast enough to win the majority of her races rather than constantly chasing (and achieving) records.

Ironically, now she’s competing against her former self and unable to win that battle, which is extremely frustrating for any athlete.

With a 2:49 1k and a 4:47 1600 split in the 3k, she is very likely in 4:20 shape right now. It’s also highly likely that in an evenly paced 3k, she would run around 9:20 right now. Her 2nd place finish at xc club nats indicates she must be in around 16:10 5k shape at least, right now. So if those times are very likely her approximate fitness level at the moment, why do you think it’s so certain that she will NEVER in her LIFE progress beyond where she is right now?

Because those times aren’t good enough in her mind. So she goes out on pace to run much faster and then blows up and runs slower than she could have.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Posts like this don't help, you just gonna ignite her and she will do too much again and get another injury.

If you are right, if she cares one whit about this thread, she is done.