Tuohy 9:40 3K 4:32 1500.... day after DR Sanders!

Or it could be that her ceiling is now 9:20 and she was going all out in every race. We won't know until the end of the year. But that seems more likely since she ran fast here last year and all indications were that she was trying to break 9 this year.

HS Phenom wrote:

Or it could be that her ceiling is now 9:20 and she was going all out in every race. We won't know until the end of the year. But that seems more likely since she ran fast here last year and all indications were that she was trying to break 9 this year.

What indications were there she was trying to go under 9? Did she say that?

Letsrun and Milesplit both said she was trying to.

LetsRun.com

January 24, 2019

NEW YORK — The professional track and field season in New York City gets underway this weekend with the 2nd Annual Dr. Sander Invitational Columbia Challenge Saturday at the Armory, but if this meet is going to be remembered a year from now, it may be because of a high schooler.

Katelyn Tuohy, the North Rockland (N.Y.) High School star, will be racing the professionals for the first time and trying to break Mary Cain’s high school indoor 3000m record of 9:04.51. The all-time fastest indoor 3000 by a high school girl is Alexa Efraimson’s 9:00.16 from 2014, which came on an oversized track.

Milesplit

Cory Mull

January 25, 2020

Update:

Three weeks ago we confirmed the likelihood of a 3K national record attempt by Katelyn Tuohy on Jan. 26 in New York at the Dr. Sander Invitational.

Just FYI your first article was from last year.

But I agree, no way she enters that race without the intention of going after a fast time.

Looks like I messed those up. So maybe her goal was really to break 9:30. At least she is being realistic about her level of fitness.

Indoor? wrote:

Just FYI your first article was from last year.

But I agree, no way she enters that race without the intention of going after a fast time.

Milesplit has its sources but best to hear it from the person directly or a news outlet willing to quote someone.

Indoor? wrote:

Just FYI your first article was from last year.

But I agree, no way she enters that race without the intention of going after a fast time.

not only with the intention of running a fast time, but thinking she was ready to just that.....and it just didn't happen that day but I think saying her ceiling is now 9:20 is crazy

What is Mary Cain's ceiling? Grace Ping's? Claudia Lane's?

I'm not sure why this matters so much to posters here.

If Cain's comeback attempt yields results in 20, 21 or 22, great. If not she can go on to medical school, and be a part of the running community in a different way.

Similarly, Claudia Lane is now happily running at Dartmouth. She may or may not become elite again, but she is getting a great education and has the support of family and friends.

Even Grace Ping, who I know the least about, managed to recover in 2019 from injury and qualify for Foot Locker. From the interviews she is eloquent, realistic and a good teammate. She's definitely now running in an adult body, who knows how she will now improve from here. If she stays right at her current level, she could still successfully contribute to a college team. If she keeps improving from here great for her.

Not every jr star goes on to be Rupp, Centrowitz, Houlihan, or Hasay, but we all know that already. I just don't get the glee and enthusiasm on here trying to predict kids to fail.

runnerexpert wrote:

HS Phenom wrote:

Or it could be that her ceiling is now 9:20 and she was going all out in every race. We won't know until the end of the year. But that seems more likely since she ran fast here last year and all indications were that she was trying to break 9 this year.

What indications were there she was trying to go under 9? Did she say that?

The proof that she wanted to break 9 is that she was running sub 9 pace. If she was just trying to run 9:30 she wouldn't have been 4:47 through 1600 because that's a dumb way to pace a 9:30.

Further proof is that she entered a PRO race. There were no high school athletes or collegiate athletes in it. You don't enter a pro race with the intention of running slow.

Nobody wants to see athletes regress. And everyone wants them to be successful outside of running. You comments about their great lives has nothing to do with how fast they run. My insertion of the other names was to point out that people refused to recognize that those runners regressed and that they can no longer hit their PRs. It appears that the same thing is happening to Tuohy. The camp who sees it is not happy about it but the camp who does not see it gets defensive about it.

You comments about the live of the runners shows that you are too emotionally attached to them. IF I challenge you to a race and I win, sounds like you will gloat that you make more money than me or that your dad is tougher than my dad. Some runners are doctors, some are lawyers, some are unemployed, some are rich, and some are poor. Irrelevant. What is odd is that some posters latch onto runners and it is almost always teen girls, and continue to build up their performances instead if accepting them at face value. Tuohy ran 9:32. Imagine if Dudek runs 9:32 and we immediately say that she backed off but she could have broken 9 if she wanted to.

I just find your comparison of Tuohy with these runners premature at best or more likely just totally wrong. Lane's body basically fell apart and she could not run. At all. Grace Ping seems to have plateaued a number of years ago and she has also faced injuries I think. Mary Cain? Who knows where she will get back to, but I bet it is much faster than 9:25.

Tuohy had a bad race result. Oh my God! I guess we should have written Marlee Starliper off after NXN where she got beat by Tuohy and 3 others? On a day when by all accounts Tuohy did not run as well as on most occasions. Or Katelynne Hart, after each of the last 2 NXNs? Do you really think Tuohy's workouts indicate she can run 9:20 and only 9:20 at this time? And despite that her coach got her into a race with a bunch of pros and she tried to run with them knowing she could not?

The idea that "regression" is some automatic and inevitable process is baseless. What people have actually said is that as female runners mature they might experience a lag but then their speed comes back. Drivel stated repeatedly and with comic self-certainty is still drivel. Tuohy came into her own in her sophomore and junior years and had a very good senior XC season. And with the exception of injuries or eating disorders most of the great female XC runner have actually had excellent post-high school running careers. And that is not even mentioning the careers of Decker and Budd. Nor is there any evidence of the type significant physical changes that might correspond to your "regression." This type of tripe makes talking about the sport tiresome. The same thing happened after she had disappointing Millrose meet. I have called it out for what it is, misogynistic, unscientific horse manure designed to subject elite high school female runners to pressure and abuse.

Yes, not everyone will go one to win a gold medal. Learn something every day.

It’s actually a good thing she’s lost about 10-15” a mile. At her peak she was extremely lean. If she was still that lean as a senior I’d be concerned as a coach or parent. She looks healthy which means if she can stick with it she has a real chance at getting faster than ever in the future barring expectations killing her love for the sport.

Also going by the facts

She's number one at 3K in the country

She's number two at 1 K

She's top 5 at 1500

She ran the fastest and the third or fourth fastest 3K time in the country on the same weekends and add top five 1500 with it

She's the only high school girl in the country to Run 3 fast distance races in one weekend

And she's the top distance runner on milesplit ranking

Now of course we can't guarantee how this will all play out and what this all means but. So far this season she's again the top distance Runner. And she's obviously working really hard. Again you can debate the pros and cons of different approaches. Maybe too much, maybe she's keeping an eye on the future. We'll see what happens!

Thanks for your answers. Of course since I'm on LRC, we can just assume that I make at least $250k annually and my market portfolio is through the roof during the Trump years. Naturally you would beat me in a race, as these days I am probably too muscular. Dad's no longer around to help, he's getting free throw tips from Kobe, but I can handle the defeat and will go home happy with my participation trophy.

On the fan front, I'm happy to be one of the 100 or so running fans left here in the US. I actually follow the boys and girls pretty evenly, as well as college (CU Fan) and pro. (Bekele, Rudisha, Murphy, Brazier) I was a big fan of Methner and Anderson and the young guys from CT Sherry, Puffer etc. That said girls high school XC/Track has just been great recently in the Northeast with F-M, Toga, Cain, Tuohy, Starliper, Rauber, Masciarelli, Mu etc. and that's created a lot of excitement around the ladies, which is great for the sport.

Parsing your answer, the key points you are making are that:

1 - Tuohy is in decline

2 - Dudek is on the ascent

I agree with you on point 2. Her Brooks Mile last spring, plus Fall XC, and her recent 2:09 800m indicate that she is on track to run in the 4:30's for the mile either this indoor, or outdoor. Add in Starliper, Hart, Parks, Jenks and even a couple of newcomers and there might be 8 girls under 4:40 in the mile in 2020, a banner year! I'm not worried about who wins, but I am thrilled to see some great national girls miles (and 800s, DMRs, 3ks).

On point 1 I beg to disagree. While Tuohy had an off race at NXN (still hanging on to win), she bounced back the next week at the ClubNats with a performance right on the level with her best efforts. Similarly, this indoor season her 2:11 800, 2:49 1000 and lol 6:01 2k split demonstrate that she has her usual fitness level. We'll just have to wait for NBIN, or the 5k vs college to see if she pops a PR off of this fitness level.

One last thought here, Taryn Parks PA, last year's NBIN mile winner, and I believe 2nd to Dudek at the Brooks PR outdoor mile, recently lost a 1000m to Starliper and a mile to Jenks. Do I think she is in decline? Heck no, each season she races herself into form and peaks perfectly at the nationals. She will again be a threat to win in March. She's fortunate that with a lower profile than Tuohy, the board does not make pronouncements about her career after every race.

For me atleast anything I have said is as far from being or intending to be misogynistic as possible. I coach girls fairly successfully and am only speaking from experience.

I totally agree that under most circumstances girls will have a plateau or regression period sometimes around puberty/body change time, this is normal, good and to be expected AND I agree that they can and should be faster after that. What I have witnessed and seen some science for is that if girls are working so hard that they are likely not having their period or potentially stalling their body changes from happening, this can lead to an extended period of good performances, however when body changes come, they come hard and those are the types that have a harder time getting through them. This could be both physical or mental. If you are struggling in HS you might still be good and enjoy things, if that struggle starts in college, it's likely not as fun.

That said, I agree on the points that the girls are all successful and leading good lives BUT if you went back and gave them the option or asked what their goals were then, I assume they wouldn't say that their goals were to burn out and have to become a lawyer or doctor or just get a degree, they rightfully so wanted to be successful runners. Now of course everyone can't be that, but there is a high probability that the things they were doing that they thought helped them become successful runners might have actually been what caused the downfall. So to say we are taking joy in predicting burn out, I am not, I am trying to warn people(athletes, coaches, parents) that HS girls should very rarely be running 65-70 a week and likely shouldn't be running all of their runs faster than 7 minute pace and shouldn't be racing 3 times in one weekend when things clearly aren't quite 100%. You can call me a hater if you want but I know my true intentions so don't really care.

If the goal is to help high school girls, couldn't we organize a separate post:

Warning to high school girls(coaches and parents), don't do this (60-70 miles, run below 7:00 pace, race too much) and do this instead.....to avoid burnout, injury, and problems with puberty.

rather than criticizing Tuohy's occasional off performances?

Clearly there is a difference between a true all-out max effort "race", and participation in a track meet.

Her training has to be based on goals/PRs of 1500m 4:15, 3000m 9:00 and 5k 15:20.

The Saturday effort at Sander v. pros was the only "race", and it did not go well.

The Sunday effort was "participation in a track meet" with some tempo runs to help the team.

The scheduling of these meets is admittedly a bit silly, but the NR team generally does a good job in making sure that the kids are not overraced.