Tuohy 9:40 3K 4:32 1500.... day after DR Sanders!

Exactly! That's why hopefully this was intentional, so she Peaks later in the season not in January, like last year!

Looks like 9:32 will be her PR for the season.

Ezrun wrote:

She's being smart and doing everything she can. If her genetics and development dictate another course for her future c'est la vie, that is life!

I think it's a bit more annoying all the dumb haters and people throwing out their doomsday predictions rather than people looking on the bright side

Sometimes doing everything you can isn't smart. I'm not throwing out doomsday predictions, I'm trying to throw out warnings because I do not believe it is genetics/development that will totally dictate a young girl runners course for her future. I believe how you train in developmental years has a huge part of that. So actually training smart can avoid future burn out.

And let me tell you, smart is not what happened this weekend. You can argue that it was the plan(which I would bet large amounts of money it was not) but even if it was the plan, it was a dumb plan. You can't say she had 2 meets on her schedule so she just needed to do it. There was ZERO reason she HAD to run at Dr. Sanders. And if the Coach couldn't tell where she was at and that she wasn't ready, then it shows he doesn't have a great grasp on things and is always going to push for races and trying to be fast, regardless of what he says to the media. But hey, I'll cut him a break, not many get to coach athletes like her, it's his first time, I doubt I would get it perfectly right either.

That said here is a bit of a negative take. Everyone wants to talk about how she is this awesome talent. I'm not so sure that's the case, I think she is very highly talented but with the evidence that we have it seems clear that she works SUPER HARD. Her talent and a high amount of work have got her to this level. It is now reasonable to question how much room she has to improve and if that work has hindered her development.

Why do those races? She needs to work on pacing and getting stronger.

just asking the question wrote:

Why do those races? She needs to work on pacing and getting stronger.

Are you answering the question or making a statement? Because I don't think any of those races helped her work on pacing.

Truly winning NXN three times, setting multiple course records and breaking national high school records and multiple distances reflects no real talent at all. LOL.

Indoor? wrote:

just asking the question wrote:

Why do those races? She needs to work on pacing and getting stronger.

Are you answering the question or making a statement? Because I don't think any of those races helped her work on pacing.

Yeah. Her pacing seems to be horrible. The classic sprint from the gun and slowly die.

Tremendous talent. But his point was that she may reached her peak at 9 minutes which is not world class.

I don't think it was intentional, just a disappointing race that does not reflect anything else. Her SRs were in the 170s level all year, and after a tough NXN in horrible conditions she looked really good a week later at the USCN 6K. She went out, realized didn't have it, and did not kill herself at the end to run a 9:20. Remionds me of the Millrose meet a couple of years back.

Bad days happen for whatever reason. Her coach mentioned stress, in which case this was good for her. She had the worst race she could have and the sky did not fall. It might be a tough lesson for a 17 year old but it is perfectly OK to lose or have a disappointing race. Outside the trolls here no one cares.

On that point, I don't think Cain's involvement was helpful. Just needless drama. People kept saying she just did not look comfortable from the onset. But she just needs to adjust. She is going to have pressure and expectations. She just needs to learn to let it go.

Where this sport is unique from all the other sports I follow is that one bad day someone becomes a permanent indicator of your future. That is empirically baseless.

astro wrote:

Truly winning NXN three times, setting multiple course records and breaking national high school records and multiple distances reflects no real talent at all. LOL.

Did I not say that she was very highly talented?

My point was maybe she has worked super hard to get to where she is and that leads to 2 questions:

1. Has she reached her ceiling? I honestly don't think so and am more concerned with the next question.

2. Has the work she has put in, or the work she is putting in now hurt her ceiling? This one I am less sure on.

Look I'd be saying these things even if she had zero off or suspect performances as I said them with Mary Cain, Sarah Baxter and many more.

I guess the debate is was things predetermined for Cain/Baxter/others or did the training they did in HS lead to the outcomes. I tend to believe that they trained so hard in HS they delayed they development but then that happens and when it happens it's rough and takes a while to get through. That was probably what Cain was going through at NOP but then exaggerated by how Salazar handled it. As Cain is showing you can come out the other side of it but it will take time.

Most HS's get through this on a normal time frame in HS and the strongest then excel in college.

So again the question, are the prodigies destined to burn out or is it the fact that they become prodigies that leads to it...

Stopwatcher wrote:

She's smart, why push for records in January. Her schedule just worked out to have two meets this weekend. I think she learned a lesson from overdoing it early in the track season last year. Probably gearing up to have a more consistent year this year. The 5K and New Balance National indoors I'll probably her Focus

Why enter a PRO race if you aren't trying to run a fast time. There weren't even any collegiate athletes in the race.

You don't think she was pushing for a record? Her first 1600 was 4:47. Look at her splits and how she blew up:

Lap Split

1 35.660 35.660

2 37.814 1:13.474

3 35.677 1:49.150

4 35.767 2:24.917

5 35.346 3:00.263

6 35.183 3:35.445

7 35.970 4:11.414

8 35.884 4:47.297

9 36.682 5:23.979

10 37.608 6:01.587

11 39.624 6:41.210

12 41.644 7:22.854

13 42.957 8:05.810

14 42.987 8:48.796

15 44.079 9:32.874

This race was clearly overdoing it, her coach put her in over her head based on her current fitness. Then it's clearly overdoing it again when she came back and ran a hard 3k and a hard 1500 the next day for no reason. If the Indoor National 5k is her focus this year, she is on track to have run nearly double the amount of races as her closest competitors in that race.

It all depends on how much effort this was, and how much she felt it the next day

If she wasn't sore at all and was able to keep training hard for the future then it's no biggie

I don't know why everyone's being so over dramatic

She's good enough to get invited to a pro race why not go and just get some experience

She ran hard for 2K and then put the brakes on

We can argue about how much of that was just dying and how much of that was intentional

The fact that she came back and ran the time she did the next day to me says it was more intentional

A lot of girls will PR with a 9:32. I don't think they're coming back the next day and running the same times in two races

Obviously time will tell.

She's a smart girl I'm sure she knows how her season went last year and is running more for the future.

I think we already pointed out that it hapoens often for high school runners. The Frazier sisters put up better numbers than this at NBN. How about German Fernandez?

I've had a girl PR in the DMR at the indoor state meet one day and then do it again the next day in the open.

It's not that crazy and doesn't show that her races this weekend were any more than they were.

I think I will blow up this thread. Tuohy is on the heat sheets for a 1600 today at the Armory (NJ metropolitan invitational). Stay tuned for her time and splits so we we can analyze this race for the next week. Or maybe just let her run.

https://results.armorytrack.com/meets/4022/events/189351/entries

Stopwatcher wrote:

She's a smart girl I'm sure she knows how her season went last year and is running more for the future.

I’m flabbergasted by these coaching decisions.

How many coaches would agree that 3 meets in 6 days in January is a good idea for long term success?

I pray she’s tempoing or scratches from that meet. After seeing the splits AGAIN, it’s clear she wasn’t tempoing or taking her foot off the pedal at DS. She blew up.

Girls Varsity 1600 is reportedly "Done" and no indication she (or Morales) ran.

In the county championship, every point matters to the team which Ms. Tuohy has clearly shown is a priority, hence the 3k/1500 double on the 26th... and the team win for NR. Do you really think she'd let her team down?

I have seen her run many times and she has always been polite, a gracious winner, a supportive teammate, and a true ambassador for the sport.

I do agree that Dr Sander was unnecessary. I don't think her coach would force her to run in it if she wasn't feeling it. That being said, the expectations heaped on her by the media, and especially armchair warriors who wouldn't be able to keep up with her on an easy run are ridiculous.

To quote Shatner on the famous SNL sketch, "Get a life, will you people?"

So when does any elite athlete race the next day not one but two races as a 17 year old. Hmmmm... coaching is all about the athlete.