For the marathon - If you CAN run high mileage and you're slow, should you?

Do much threshold and/or long interval stuff? Or do you run that volume at the same speed?

With the high mileage I do thresholds, intervals, long runs and stuff yeah. 2 workouts a week.

But I'm quite sure that with the higher mileage the paces that I run for those harder efforts are slower than if I were to cut the mileage - I'm not sure if this makes a significant difference as long as I'm still stressing the same systems to be adapting by putting in the same "effort"

A goal race with a mini taper 13ish weeks out might be a good way to assess whether your method is working...

So you MP is around 7:00/m, theoretically your 100mile per week runs are around 9:00/m. I don't think people are telling you that you would go faster simply by reducing mileage. I think their take is that by reducing mileage to maybe 50 or 60, you could do the bulk of your training at ~8:00/m. This may bot provide a "bigger" stimulus, but it would provide a more specific stimulus for the goal of racing faster.

I think its a reasonable argument but I don't think that argument holds up from a physiological point of view since the idea is to run just fast enough to stimulate the maximum stroke volume of the heart and that any running within the grey zone (i.e. easy pace and marathon pace) is "wasteful" in terms of adaptation.

How fast are you running your easy runs and workouts? If you're doing your easy runs at say 10 minute pace, then that's probably too slow. Are your workout paces in line with 6:50ish marathon pace?

lightng wrote:

I think its a reasonable argument but I don't think that argument holds up from a physiological point of view since the idea is to run just fast enough to stimulate the maximum stroke volume of the heart and that any running within the grey zone (i.e. easy pace and marathon pace) is "wasteful" in terms of adaptation.

Running a little faster definitely isn't "wasteful". I agree with you that 100mpw is fine for you and that you are running at the correct pace, but it's not as simple as running at the maximum stroke volume of the heart. There are other factors besides the physiological that determine running performance. For example, by running faster you would strengthen the muscles in your legs.

I know Jack Daniels talks about why you don't need to run faster than 60% of Max heart rate on easy days, but I don't think most people agree with that.

I still think that running 100mpw is fine for you but not many people believe in the idea of "grey zones" anymore. It's more of a spectrum.

If you are in 310 shape now, I think you can break 250, maybe 245 this year as long as you keep the consistent 120 mpw.

Here are things I would do:

1. every 4th week (or when you race if its sooner), take a down week - this could mean something like 130 130 130 90 or 120 120 120 80 - it could lower your average mpw, but I consider the benefit in terms of recovery worth it.

2.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2487659

the workouts in this thead.

i was terribly slow when I started running, never under 6:00 for the mile in high school and my first marathon took 4:34. I took all that as a sign that if I wanted to be even passably decent I would need to train a LOT. So I did and went from 50 and down before that first marathon to 150 at times. I ended up two hours faster. I did have people along the way (this process took over two years) telling me I'd be faster if I ran less and did it faster. But I was getting faster each time I bumped up the miles so I ignored that advice. Unlike you, I never really ran easy for all those miles though I also didn't run them really hard.

Try running whatever mileage you can in singles rather than doubles. Unless you're a national caliber talent, which you're not, then it's more important to have balance in your life. You could probably run 60-80 mpw in singles, which would allow you time to have a much more well rounded life and more time for other endeavors. At the end of the day, you want running to be a fun and healthy hobby, not an obsession.

4months might not enough to change your mindset! You consider yourself a 3h10 guy, it's all about your perception.

I think you need to start training with faster runners than you to boost confidence in your training. Not all the workouts but at least partly and mostly the harder stuff...

If you can't see it, you can't get it! You are lucky not to be injury prone, don't ever take that for granted. Either run with faster people than you in order to improve or get a coach who believe in your dream and yourself.

Good luck !

Kvothe wrote:

If you are in 310 shape now, I think you can break 250, maybe 245 this year as long as you keep the consistent 120 mpw.

Here are things I would do:

1. every 4th week (or when you race if its sooner), take a down week - this could mean something like 130 130 130 90 or 120 120 120 80 - it could lower your average mpw, but I consider the benefit in terms of recovery worth it.

2.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2487659

the workouts in this thead.

^^^This.

I knew a kid that didn’t break 12 for 3200 in high school. He started putting in triple digit mileage and ran in the 2:30s for the full ‘thon in his early 20s.

Being durable is a gift like sub 50 400m speed. Put in that consistent big mileage and you’ll find talent you didn’t know you had.

You should be able to break 3 on much less mileage.

60-70 miles is plenty as long as you get in some good long tempo runs. I broke 3 several times on 40-50 mpw and wouldnt do any real speed work. I would do a lot of tempo runs with each mile that got progressively faster, often averaging 30 seconds faster than MP. This made me a much better marathoner than a 5K runner.

I couldn’t run a 3:10 today, so I’m not criticizing but I think a different strategy would yield better results and take up much less time.

That said, if you enjoy the miles and have the time, have at it.

I think you're in the right. High mileage will make you quicker and if you're wiling to put the time in then you'll beak 3 hours barrier easily.

People maybe right when they if you did this over 70 miles it'd be more beneficial then what you're doing over 100 but they may be wrong and if you're willing/able/enjoying 100 miles who cares.

I started running 14 months ago, I've basically never run faster than 7.30 per mile in training but because I have been doing 80+ miles a week recently I achieved 1.13.28 in half marathon (setting all my PBs from mile to HM according to strava). People say I could be doing something else better, there right, but I've enjoyed it and not got injured as the actual runs are less taxed then people who do lower mileage.

I guess to clarify, my goal is not to "just break 3", I want to run the best marathon that I possibly can in 17 weeks, I don't know if that changes anyone's perception on my goal.

I'm coming off a down week where I tried to absorb the previous 17 weeks of training since I noticed my easy pace getting slower after doing 85 mpw with 2 long/hard workouts per week (each of around 16-20 miles)

Yes yes and yes!

From experience I was a slow runner too but found I could handle high mileage with no injuries or over-fatigue. So I threw everything at it and got down to 2:27 in the end.

I got the same reaction "why are you running so much if you're only going to barely break 2:30". But let's be honest, unless we are sub 2:05 then we are all in the same boat. I got particular flack from a 2:17 runner who managed it on 80 mpw - a bit rich seeing as we would both be multiple miles behind the winner in a race. You do you and I'll do me.

So many others have similar experiences - HRE on the boards is another example. Go check out the "140 miles a week" threads.

First of all 80 to 100 miles a week is not anywhere near high mileage. It's a cutback week from 20 miles -23 miles a day. And the peak may occur 6 months later after 140 to 160 miles a week.

So focus on specific workouts, because you are low to medium mileage.

And don't give me any lip, just change your personal self evaluation.

took me 3 years to qualify for boston (2:50 needed at that time). started running at 31 so never any speed. ended up running 80-90 mpw for several years. improved to 2:32 at age 38. fastest 10k in mid 32s so i reached my limit. mileage complimented with galloway's mile repeat schedule really helped. almost magical going from 3 x 1 mile to 13 x 1 mile repeats over 20 weeks at same or faster pace (it actually gets easier). helps to have a partner as mentally tough initially but if you stick to it becomes very self reinforcing as quickly see gains . 20 mile long run in off week.

as i got older, late 50s into early 60s , focused on endurance doing long runs up to 24-26 mile with little speed work. age group rating peaked at 61 years old when ranked 37th in world for 60-64 group in marathon, 20s in 5k and 10k but of course got slower and slower. enjoyed the ride.

-started running 14 months ago, 1:13 HM and never trained faster than 7:30 pace

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