Houston half: Great day or not for the Americans? Not a single American came close to Kipchoge or Kosgei's marathon pace

You need to factor in that all of those guys, except Reid Buchanan, are right in the middle of high-mileage training for the Marathon Trials. Those are fast times on tired legs.

The course was 0.2m short, as per the other thread.

Americans would be happy if they had 5 men at 13,08 over 5k in one race, yes? That is Bekele's 10ooom WR pace.

Think of it that way.

Ryan Hall and Diego Estrada ran 59:43 and 60:51 on the same course without the shoes. Would Hall had run 58:40 and Diego 59:40 with the new shoes?

sisu ?? wrote:

Americans would be happy if they had 5 men at 13,08 over 5k in one race, yes? That is Bekele's 10ooom WR pace.

Think of it that way.

Good point. I wasn't trying to piss on the performances I was more trying to make sense of them.

Sally Vix wrote:

Ryan Hall and Diego Estrada ran 59:43 and 60:51 on the same course without the shoes. Would Hall had run 58:40 and Diego 59:40 with the new shoes?

I feel confident in saying there is a good chance they would have run faster than they did but the effects are either bigger in the marathon or maybe just more noticeable as a 30 second swing either of way in a lot of races is in the margin of error.

Sjkfdzjvcc wrote:

The course was 0.2m short, as per the other thread.

I just read Rock N Roll Arizona was short. What about Houston?

wejo wrote:

Sjkfdzjvcc wrote:

The course was 0.2m short, as per the other thread.

I just read Rock N Roll Arizona was short. What about Houston?

Houston has used the same course for a number of years. It starts and ends in the same section of downtown each year.

At least relate this to the ARs, not the WRs. We should get to a point where we can compete with our distant past again before we thinking about going with the world's present day best.

Do you guys get a hard on trying to undermine every effort people run now on the roads because you couldn’t run those times? Cause that’s what your “reporting” feels like.

They're the eternal critics who never have the answers. Teddy Roosevelt spoke of them relative to the proverbial man in the arena. This would be why no high level man in the arena takes them seriously.

Sjkfdzjvcc wrote:

The course was 0.2m short, as per the other thread.

No, wrong race,

sisu ?? wrote:

Americans would be happy if they had 5 men at 13,08 over 5k in one race, yes? That is Bekele's 10ooom WR pace.

Think of it that way.

And Finns are happy when there is one guy who can run a sub 30 min 10K. In 1973 there were 43 runners who did it. Most runners would nowadays probably be faster if they carried a hockey stick and wore a helmet. Think about that.

Why should Americans come close to Kipchoge or Kosgei's pace?

Yes, my thought is you shouldn't be comparing their efforts, in the middle of a build up to a marathon trials, to some of the greatest runners to take on the marathon. Your yardstick is wrong.

Look at how deep the NCAA has been in the past 10 years. Last year there were 33 sub 29 10k guys in division 1.

Go back to the 90's and you had maybe 15 sub 29 guys. At my division 1 school we had some school records or top 5 all-time at the school from the 90's and early 2000's of like 28:45-29:00 for 10k, and 13:50's/14 flat and we'd hear how they were conference champions in a P5 conference and were all-americans. Those times don't hardly get you anything in the past 10 years. They might get you a couple points at your conference meet and if you're lucky you might qualify for nationals and be at the back of the pack. All of this depth has moved to the roads and we are now seeing more and more guys running faster times in the half marathon. Most of these guys from this weekend are 23-30 years old, in the NCAA in this past 8 years that I'm talking about. They'll be translating up to the marathon. In the US history we've had 19 guys go sub 2:10 in the marathon. I'd bet we'll have a new 5 guys in the next four years, which is way ahead of the average rate. There are more fast guys running 5k/10k in college and that's translating to faster times on the roads, it's not the dang shoes. Jared Ward just won without Nike shoes, it is not the shoes. Sarah Hall did it on the somen's side, it's not the shoes. 10k world record was set in Adidas shoes. The dang Nike shoes do not automatically make you faster. Emma Bates runs CIM two years ago in Vaporfly 4%, runs FASTER in Chicago the next year in Asics shoes.

I'm just going to leave this here.

Marathon , 1976 Olympic Trials

Frank Shorter

2:11:51

Bill Rodgers

2:11:59

Don Kardong

2:13:54

I don't think the comparison is valid.

You're comparing one race to the single greatest performance in the history of marathoning. Nothing will look good compared to that.

Different race, different day, different course, different conditions. Different context. The Americans are not just in the middle of their Trials buildup, the goal for a lot of them is just trying to hit a Trials qualifier. Compare that with Kipchoge, who was trying to cap off the greatest marathon career ever. Or Kosgei, trying to take down a dominant WR.

Putting yourself on the line on race day is hard enough. You can go crazy trying to compare yourself with everyone else in the world, let alone with the greatest of all time.

is this good ides?

I suspect the overall unimpressiveness of American times could be due to the new 'magic' coach JS.