When do you start running 200s at 800m race pace?

Made a mistake in Lewandowskis 400m PR -

Symmonds 47.4 / 1:42.9

Lewandowski 47.7 / 1:43.7

Sure, there are 400/800 guys too with better speed, and maybe you were one of them. I would consider anything below 47 flat a 400/800m guy. For example:

Kszczot 46.5 / 1:43.3.

He also had 22.3 200m speed, which Symmonds and Lewandowski obviously wouldn't have the wheels for. So someone like Rudisha obviously belongs in that speed group. Brazier has 46.9 (open) 400m speed, so he is right in the middle. Wouldn't be surprised if he could run a good 10k in the mid 29 min range as well, despite moderate mileage.

The question is how much you want to individualize training based on your profile as a runner (more speed-based or endurance-based). Maybe it's better to have 800m paced intervals year-round for the 400/800 guy, or maybe it is better for ALL runners to focus on threshold in the base phase (there were rumors Rudisha actually did decent mileage in his off-season, although I can't confirm them).

I agree with you on this one. The Tinman 800/10k table may be more accurate for the 8/15 guys, even though I don't believe any 800 guys in my era ran a 10k other than Graham Hood.

Being a 4/8 guy I always trained at sub 30 after my first base phase cycle so we would train at closer to race pace throughout the year.

For the OP if you are more of a 4/8 guy I'd say train at that pace sooner than later. If you are a 8/15 guy I'd build to that towards the end of indoor but not too close to prime race season.

And for reference LateRunnerPhil I'm not going to say too much but I may have PR's under 1.44 and 45. That will be all I say on my accomplishments but wanted you to know I say what I do out of experience.

It depends on your level. With kids, 200s at 800m race pace are very easy. I just gave kids who are very much neophytes and lack much endurance at all a workout with 4x200 and 1x800 (at the request of one of them) and it was in the sun on an 83 degree day. The 4x200s were on uneven grass, hard to run on, and it was short in distance but harder than a track 200m. They were doing from 31-42 on the 200s and while some of them slowed down a few seconds, it was manageable. There was enough rest between most of them for them to go get water. Then the fastest '800m' was 3:25, about 51-52 per 200m. The moral of the story is that they lacked the endurance to continue so that 8x200m would have been much easier than 4x200, 1x800.

A huge variable here is the rest interval. Also, we need to be clear on whether we are talking about current 800m pace or the pace you are hoping to run for the opening 200m of an 800m 4 months from now (big difference there. For a guy aiming for 2:00 in May, it might be the difference between 31 point and 28 flat). I'd say that, at this time of year, running 8x200m at your current 800m pace with a good recovery (say 200m walk/jog) should not be too difficult, and is a good way to stay in touch with some kind of speed over the winter. I'd be more likely to cut it down to about 5x200m and do it after an easy distance run.

You’re naming guys that are an anomaly, this is what made them Olympic level athletes vs myself. Endurance can play a bigger role for some vs others which is why theirs 400/800 runners and 800/1500m runners, then theirs pure 800m specialist. These guys are 800/1500 runners. I’ve actually done sessions with symmonds at one time and I’m certain he would not have broken 30 minutes for 10k.

Old Man 2 Lapper wrote:

I agree with you on this one. The Tinman 800/10k table may be more accurate for the 8/15 guys, even though I don't believe any 800 guys in my era ran a 10k other than Graham Hood.

Being a 4/8 guy I always trained at sub 30 after my first base phase cycle so we would train at closer to race pace throughout the year.

For the OP if you are more of a 4/8 guy I'd say train at that pace sooner than later. If you are a 8/15 guy I'd build to that towards the end of indoor but not too close to prime race season.

And for reference LateRunnerPhil I'm not going to say too much but I may have PR's under 1.44 and 45. That will be all I say on my accomplishments but wanted you to know I say what I do out of experience.

Yes, I agree that Tinman's table works more for the general runner with a mixed fiber distribution and endurance based 800m runners / 800/1500 runners. This is also in line with his experience, which is mostly distance runners. For someone like Drew Hunter it would work very well, Drew never had blazing speed but achieved very solid 800m times for the speed that he did have (51s in HS, probably around 50 flat or shortly below as pro).

For the training (and that's also in response to the post from sub146guy) that's exactly my point - we can't say in general if doing 800m-paced reps throughout the entire year is the best way to train for the 800m, it depends on the type of runner and his individual strengths/weaknesses and muscle fiber distribution. Symmonds, Lewandowski etc became great 800m runners by doing lots of threshold training and classic base building in the off-season/winter. Kszczot and Rudisha do lower mileage and also include intensity more frequently throughout the year. OP has to find out where he stands and where his strengths/weaknesses are, and THEN decide how to plan his training.

Agree. Last I’ll say about this which will sum it up. Here’s where most ppl get these events wrong and it’s not their fault. We tend to group the 800 and 1500 together much like we do the 5k and 10k. But truth is physiological speaking, the 800 and 1500 are much different than the 5k is from the 10k which is what makes training for the 800 much more complex.

100% AGREE!!!

It's fun to be civil and not just troll each other sometimes.

Indeed you should be doing 200s at 800 race pace quite soon if you are getting ready for spring.

When you are a few weeks out from your first race, you should knock out some warm up strides and run a 400 at race pace. Then jog around for 5 minutes and knock out a 600 at race pace. Yup.

Too much work this time of year instead concentrate on 150s the first 50 build up to 800 M speed or even slightly faster second fifty at that 800m speed or slightly faster 3rd 50 of the 150 backing off 50 meter walk repeat 8 times this workout get you in touch with a speed that you need to sustain later in the season

600yf/600m man wrote:

YMMV wrote:

Don't sleep on Hoppel. Definite shot at the final in Tokyo.

You lost credibility. Hoppel is the 166th all-time fastest 800m man. Hoppel would be the slowest 800m man to earn 800m Olympic gold since Dave Wottle.

4th in Doha by 0.5 sec you purulent ingrate. Go back to Go, do not collect $200.

you want to do regular 120 m strides x six at race pace with full recovery year round.

after workouts, except when you are doing quality, and you warm up with the strides.

you don't do exclusively long slow distance and then switch to speed, nonono

even snell and lydiard did hills hard and bounding, and snell snuck in more speed than he was told.

I swung by a track on my 12-miler today, got in 5x (100, 50) @ 400 cadence, walk 250 per lap. Felt awesome and didn't affect my overall run negatively.

600yf/600m man wrote:

You lost credibility. Hoppel is the 166th all-time fastest 800m man. Hoppel would be the slowest 800m man to earn 800m Olympic gold since Dave Wottle.

Dave Wottle was the 800m world record holder when he won Olympic gold. Hardly the slowest guy in the race,

YMMV wrote:

I swung by a track on my 12-miler today, got in 5x (100, 50) @ 400 cadence, walk 250 per lap. Felt awesome and didn't affect my overall run negatively.

I swung by the track yesterday evening and did a 600m and 500m at mile pace, then a 400m and two 300s at 800m pace. Recovery was a jog of equal distances.

Felt terrible, it affected my sleep negatively and my ears still feel clogged.

right now

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Tinman's training for 800m runners makes a lot of sense:

1) In base phase, focus on making them aerobically stronger (improving 10k times and lactate threshold). Lots of Tinman tempos and CV reps, with little quality added on in the same workout (like 5x200 at mile pace after 6x1000 or 4x200 progressive from mile down to 800m pace after a 10k tempo).

2) THEN in the 3-10 weeks before peak competition, sharpen with races and harder intervals, but always still keep some of the stamina work.

3) Taper/peak in the last 2-3 weeks.

Many 800m runners don't run close to their potential because of a lack of stamina. If a 52-53s 400m guy only runs 2:00 (and there are many college kids running 52/2:00) and has a 10k of 36:00, it is clear where the work should be.

I think this is a decent plan, but "flying 150s" or 150 accelerations pretty much year round make a lot of sense.

What is "Tinman Tempo?" Is that his easy tempo or normal tempo pace or something in between based on his calculator?

Stay in touch with speed wrote:

I think this is a decent plan, but "flying 150s" or 150 accelerations pretty much year round make a lot of sense.

What is "Tinman Tempo?" Is that his easy tempo or normal tempo pace or something in between based on his calculator?

Well Tinman has 4x200 and 4x30s hills year-round each week (at the end of workouts), but more as mile effort in the beginning. Then he transitions where he prescribes them progressive from mile RP down to 800m, then only at 800m effort if it's getting closer to competitions and then he changes the type of workouts, from 7x1000&4x200 or 40 min Tempo&4x30s hills to 3x1000&4x400 at 800m pace for example. He is not a big fan of the classic 10x400@Mile, but rather has 800m runners work a lot at specific pace in the weeks before the key competition, and 5x300 or 4x400 at 800m pace is one of the key sessions he likes to prescribe.

For "Tinman Tempo", it is (current!) 5k pace + 1 min/mile OR around the pace someone can hold for around 2.5-3 hours in a race. The tempos are typically longer, around 30-40 mins.

So it is different than for example the classic Daniels tempo that's 20 min at faster than half-marathon pace (around 1 hour race pace).

For 800m runners (and all except HM and M specialists) he uses Tinman Tempos primarily in base phase. A 800m-specific key session would replace it competition period, since Tinman Tempo doesn't really do much for the mechanical requirements of a 800m pace (lower knee lift, lower cadence, shorter stride length, etc). It does wonders for aerobic endurance tho!

YMMV wrote:

600yf/600m man wrote:

You lost credibility. Hoppel is the 166th all-time fastest 800m man. Hoppel would be the slowest 800m man to earn 800m Olympic gold since Dave Wottle.

4th in Doha by 0.5 sec you purulent ingrate. Go back to Go, do not collect $200.

Attacking me in a hostile manner does not allow you to regain credibility. Trust me fella. I saw 2019 W.C. 800m final. I know Hoppel finished a distant 4th. Half a second in a W.C. 800m final is not close. Hoppel cannot even race F.A.T. 49.00 400m. Why are you continue to fight a losing fight with me forcing me to attack Hoppel. He's probably kind to kids and nice to his mother. If you say stupid stuff, I am going to point out your flawed argument.