When do you start running 200s at 800m race pace?

This is somewhat true for speed endurance training but still you have a naive sense of training. He may do speed development training now with plenty of rest. You’re telling him Stone Age training . While yes you do endurance lactate clearing sessions now, a true 800m training program starts with working both ends of the spectrum and working towards the middle(race pace) during the season. Repeat 120-150m sprints with 250m slow walk full recovery at 400m race effort or faster(if efficient) will set up an 800m runner to get more out of his/her speed endurance sessions come the spring. You want to learn more, go to the “my quest for sub 1:50” thread. You’re welcome

The beauty of base and pre-comp phases for the 800 is that you don't need to be too focused on any one pace. You can benefit equally (but in different ways) from hilly fartleks, done with a variety of on/off combinations, 5x1000 on the road, grass or track, and one of my faves, Pyramids of 100-200-300-400-600-800-600-400-300-200-100 and the like. Of course hill reps of various lenf=ghts and intensiteies, and every-other-week tempos of 20-ish minutes, even done with brief rests thrown in.

The main emphasis is easy relaxed effort at speed, doing sessions with any stress on splits or reps increases the risk of injury setback unnecessarily. Just tag the bases and continue the overall buildup of speed, power and endurance which is unique to the 800.

I'm currently trying the stone-age approach (jack daniels). It's not bad, but I wish I had supplemented the base phase with 400m/800m paced workouts. I feel I've neglected my calves and abs for 12 weeks.

Maybe 20-30x 100m @ 800m pace every other week during base phase would have been better.

I do 4-15 x 100 every two or three days, year around, except when peaking. Strides are the bread-and-butter of the 400-1500, just like hill reps.

KT1 wrote:

Right now.

you should never run 200's slower than 800 pace, unless you're training for the 1500.

800 Expert wrote:

Star wrote:

Who is the current men's 800m World Champion which was run in Championship Record time?

One world champ after years of silence is hardly being competitive. Look at men’s 400, 400H, 4x400.

Why is the US so good at the 400?

Pretty poor statement.

US has two very good male 800m runners right now. One is an Olympic medalist and the other a world champion.

They also picked up silver and bronze place at the last world championships in the women's race.

YMMV wrote:

I do 4-15 x 100 every two or three days, year around, except when peaking. Strides are the bread-and-butter of the 400-1500, just like hill reps.

Yeah the daniels plan has you do 6ST during or after every E run, but you don't switch to spikes for those. Doing a dedicated 3x(8x100m) 40s/4min rest, has a whole different feeling to it.

jack daniels 800m phase III wrote:

I'm currently trying the stone-age approach (jack daniels). It's not bad, but I wish I had supplemented the base phase with 400m/800m paced workouts. I feel I've neglected my calves and abs for 12 weeks.

Maybe 20-30x 100m @ 800m pace every other week during base phase would have been better.

my biggest gripe with daniels has always been that his base phase leaves a lot to be desired.

high school xc coach wrote:

jack daniels 800m phase III wrote:

I'm currently trying the stone-age approach (jack daniels). It's not bad, but I wish I had supplemented the base phase with 400m/800m paced workouts. I feel I've neglected my calves and abs for 12 weeks.

Maybe 20-30x 100m @ 800m pace every other week during base phase would have been better.

my biggest gripe with daniels has always been that his base phase leaves a lot to be desired.

A very successful HS coach from Staten Island (and huge fan of Daniels) told me years ago to do 150s often. He felt that they were long enough to leave a neurological blueprint but short enough not to tax the athletes.

Old Man 2 Lapper wrote:

This is absolutely in NO WAY a peak workout for the 800m. Not even close to a peak workout and if someone says it is PLEASE laugh at them and tell them to put the foil back on their head.

Running race pace for twice the distance of the race is not something you do in base phase training for 800/1500 training. (I've run 1:49/3:42)

Now, a distance runner may be able to handle their 800 race pace for longer because their 800 times are not so fast.

But someone focusing on the 800 needs pretty fast 200s to be on race pace, especially thinking about the opening 200 of their race which is 25. for most decent college runners.

They would never do 8 of those in the fall.

A couple of things here

1. It depends on the athlete. Many athletes would not find that session strenuous in the least and would consider that a Maintenence session. A guy with good basic speed but relatively poor endurance could do that session in the off season to stay in touch with race pace while working more seriously on all the other components of fitness

Similarly, a beginner who has played sports like soccer and basketball, but doesn’t have a great 800 time yet would probably find this session pretty easy.

2. A more endurance based guy who has a good 800 and 1500 might find the workout a little more taxing and could do either shorter reps at 800 speed or 200s slightly slower to get the same effect.

We’re really talking about the question, “what stress is the most appropriate to get the adaptation I’m looking for?

Please don't take what I said out of context. I said it was not a PEAK workout. It is a great workout and I've done it several times. If you want to compare distances, in my prime I ran 800/400 so speed was treated a bit differently in my training.

Once again, it's a great workout but not a peak workout. And please don't compare a 1500m runner doing this workout, the OP specifically says for the 800m in the question.

Tinman's training for 800m runners makes a lot of sense:

1) In base phase, focus on making them aerobically stronger (improving 10k times and lactate threshold). Lots of Tinman tempos and CV reps, with little quality added on in the same workout (like 5x200 at mile pace after 6x1000 or 4x200 progressive from mile down to 800m pace after a 10k tempo).

2) THEN in the 3-10 weeks before peak competition, sharpen with races and harder intervals, but always still keep some of the stamina work.

3) Taper/peak in the last 2-3 weeks.

Many 800m runners don't run close to their potential because of a lack of stamina. If a 52-53s 400m guy only runs 2:00 (and there are many college kids running 52/2:00) and has a 10k of 36:00, it is clear where the work should be.

The OP stated he was not racing until spring, so I am suggesting that 8X200 at 800 race pace is not the workout to do right now.

I was a 400 runner in high school that moved to the 800 in college.

That's more of the perspective I give. I did become a 1500 runner after college.

I know I did a lot of 6X200 at 800 pace as racing season started. And lot of 8X200 a bit slower than 800 pace as well.

We an differ on whether 8X200 at 800 pace is a peak workout or not. For me it was.

I think we all agree that it is not a January workout to get ready for April races.

Or don't we?

That explanation is good, thanks. We do differ in how we use it. I obviously came from a different type of training and never moved up to the 1500. I agree with how you'd use it in your training but i wouldn't be opposed to using it this early. It depends on what type of athlete they are, I guess I should have asked that. My only thing was using it as a peak workout which to me it is not.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Tinman's training for 800m runners makes a lot of sense:

1) In base phase, focus on making them aerobically stronger (improving 10k times and lactate threshold). Lots of Tinman tempos and CV reps, with little quality added on in the same workout (like 5x200 at mile pace after 6x1000 or 4x200 progressive from mile down to 800m pace after a 10k tempo).

2) THEN in the 3-10 weeks before peak competition, sharpen with races and harder intervals, but always still keep some of the stamina work.

3) Taper/peak in the last 2-3 weeks.

Many 800m runners don't run close to their potential because of a lack of stamina. If a 52-53s 400m guy only runs 2:00 (and there are many college kids running 52/2:00) and has a 10k of 36:00, it is clear where the work should be.

This is right, but a true 800m runner doesn’t need to have the endurance to run a solid 10k. I would say 3k would be the extent of where a true 800m runner should be able to showcase his endurance. My best 3k was 8:08 but i also ran 46-47 in the 400 at the same time. Then my best road 5k was 14:41 which is a big drop off and maybe why I never broke 3:40 for 1500, but for the 800m I felt I had all the endurance I needed and was limited by my 47 400 speed vs someone like brazier who has 45 sec speed.

ex-runner wrote:

800 Expert wrote:

Don't sleep on Hoppel. Definite shot for the final in Tokyo.

One world champ after years of silence is hardly being competitive. Look at men’s 400, 400H, 4x400.

Why is the US so good at the 400?

Pretty poor statement.

US has two very good male 800m runners right now. One is an Olympic medalist and the other a world champion.

They also picked up silver and bronze place at the last world championships in the women's race.

ex-runner wrote:

Pretty poor statement.

US has two very good male 800m runners right now. .

Don't sleep on Hoppel. Definite shot at the final in Tokyo.

YMMV wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

Pretty poor statement.

US has two very good male 800m runners right now. .

Don't sleep on Hoppel. Definite shot at the final in Tokyo.

You lost credibility. Hoppel is the 166th all-time fastest 800m man. Hoppel would be the slowest 800m man to earn 800m Olympic gold since Dave Wottle.