Sub 2h30 Spring Marathon - The Quest For Amateur Glory Rides Again!

Love seeing some training details posted. Here is some of my weeks leading up to Columbus last year. Ran 2:30:25 with a negative split. First couple weeks was me coming back from an injury. Maybe some of these workouts will give some insight into what it took to run pretty close. Still kicking myself for stopping at that porta potty. Closed that last mile in 5:25 too.

September 9th

M: Off

T: 4.63 miles, 6:42 pace

W: 3.08 miles, 6:30 pace

TH: 4.66 miles, 6:49 pace

F: 4.02 miles, 7:07 pace

S: 14 mile with a progression in the second half : 6:24 pace, (From mile 10: 6:06, 5:56, 5:56, 5:58)

Sun: 8.32 miles: 7:13 pace

September 16th

M: Off

T: 8.69 mile, 6:54 pace

W: 8.86 m,iles, 6:46 pace

TH: Off

F: 7.24 miles, 7:38 pace

S: Off

Sun: 15.01 miles, 6:54 pace

September 23rd

M: Off

T: 8 miles easy, 6 x 30 seconds on, 1 min easy: 6:47 pace

W: 5 miles easy, 7:00 pace

TH: 3 miles easy, 6 x 1' @ 10K pace, 90" moderate, 2 mile cooldown (Paces: 5:06, 6:15, 5:13, 5:58, 5:02, 6:12, 5:19, 6:00, 5:04, 6:02, 4:56, 5:55)

F: 6.66 mile, 7:33 pace

S:

Sun: Long run with 3 @ MP: 15 miles, 6:38 average, (Last 6: 6:07, 5:58, 5:42, 5:37, 5:34)

September 30th

M: Off

T: 8 miles easy, 6x30" on, 1 min off. 9.41 miles, 7:06 pace

W: Easy 8 miles, 7:13 pace

TH: Workout, 3 miles easy, 5x 2' on 1' off, 6x 30" on 1' off), (Paces for first part: 5:10, 6:45, 5:08, 6:46, 5:05, 6:44, 5:04, 6:54, 5:07) (Paces for second part: 4:35, 6:41, 4:29, 7:11, 4:37, 7:16, 4:33, 7:13, 4:32, 7:21, 4:26, 7:33) Had to dodge people on a really tight park loop

F: Easy 6.13: 7:41 pace

S: 10 miles plus 30" on 1' off. 11.56 miles, 6:56 pace

Sun: Long Run/Workout: 10K easy, 8 x 1 mile on, 1 mile cruise (+1 minute), 2.32 miles easy home. 16.32 miles, 6:35 pace (Paces: 5:31, 6:31, 5:29, 6:28, 5:29, 6:26, 5:26, 6:18)

October 7: (Had a buddies wedding in Montana so it was a tough week to get stuff in)

M: Off

T: 10 miles easy

W: Workout: 3 miles easy, 3x 1 mile @ MP with 3 min jog, 4x 200, 2 mile cooldown (Paces: 5:37, 6:28, 5:28, 6:33, 5:25, 6:57) 10.45 miles, 6:16 pace

TH: 7.33 miles: 7:21 pace. Montana day 1

F: 4 mile hike/off

S: 6.09 miles. 7:44 pace

Sun: off/flight home

October 14:

M: Off

T: Easy 8 miles, 6:59 pace

W: Easy 8 miles, 7:05 pace

TH: Easy workout simulating first couple miles, 3 miles easy, 3 miles leading into MP, 2 mile CD: 8 miles, 6:32 average (Paces: 5:51, 5:47, 5:44)

F: 6 miles easy, 7:21 pace

S: 3 mile shakeout, 8:30 pace

Sun: Marathon: 2:30:25, Negative split

@Antonio Gramsci - Welcome to the thread! It sounds like you have a strong aerobic background and now have the passion to get it back and to get better!

@jvarunner - That's quite the 4 weeks leading up to the marathon. Do you usually go into a hard taper mode like that where you don't have too many workouts? I will often do my last workout the Tuesday before the race with like 3-4 at MP.

@Antonio Gramsci are you from the Twin Cities area?

Learningcurve, I lived in the Twin Cities from 2011-2018 before leaving for a job. I miss it a lot and hope to get back there eventually.

Tyler_Runs_Lifts wrote:

@Antonio Gramsci - Welcome to the thread! It sounds like you have a strong aerobic background and now have the passion to get it back and to get better!

@jvarunner - That's quite the 4 weeks leading up to the marathon. Do you usually go into a hard taper mode like that where you don't have too many workouts? I will often do my last workout the Tuesday before the race with like 3-4 at MP.

10 days out from Chi:

4mi easy + 4 sets of (1.5mi at 5:40→5:28/mi, 0.5mi at 6:40-6:40/mi) + 1mi easy

One week til Chi:

10mi easy to moderate + 5mi progressing from 6:20 to 5:40/mi + 0.5mi easy

4 days til Chi:

10min easy to moderate + 4 strides + 4x1.25mi at ~5:25- 5:20/mi w/ 3min easy jog recovery +

12min easy CD

Mileage

Week before Chi: 73 mi

Week of Chi: 67 mi

The idea with the repeats in the last couple weeks is to get some faster miles in (with good amt of rest between reps and without going too hard) so that MP feels easier. The paces are not set in stone. If I feel good and smooth I will hit the paces. If I don't feel I can run the paces without working too hard, I will run slower.

Here's my last week of training.

Monday: AM 5.2 easy (7:14) / PM 10 easy (6:52) with 6 x 10 sec hill sprints + deadlifts and core

Tuesday: 11 easy (6:55)

Wednesday: cruise intervals - 6 x mile on the track. 5:23, 23, 22, 23, 21, 15 with 90 sec. jog recovery. 12 miles total for the run.

Thursday: AM 5.7 recovery (7:24) / PM 8.3 easy (7:14) + deadlifts and core

Friday: 10 easy (6:56) with 6 x 30 sec strides

Saturday: 14.1 medium-long (7:09)

Sunday: 10.7 easy (7:19)

Total: 87 miles

Didn't get in much of a long run this week - I had running friends, and I planned to add on after running with them on Saturday, but just didn't end up doing it for a variety of reasons. No big deal, as there's still plenty of time before VCM and I've had good long runs the last three weeks before this one. I'll aim for 20M next Saturday. The Wednesday cruise interval workout was solid and should help provide a strength basis as I move toward more specific marathon pace work in a few weeks.

Copying from the Road Racing Thread...

Mon - 6.2 mi @ 8:11

Tues - 2 mi WU, 2 x 2K @ HM, 6 x 400 @ 5K, 2 mi CD

Wed - 7.1 mi @ 8:05

Thurs - 13.7 mi @ 6:52

Fri - 2 mi WU, 2 x 5K @ HM, 1 mi aerobic rest, 2 mi CD

Sat - 8 mi @ 8:07

Sun - 20 mi @ 6:45

Tuesday felt pretty good with the 2K repeats coming in at 6:41 & 6:39, followed by the 400s in 70, 72, 71, 72, 72, 71. I had 200 jog recovery between the 2Ks & 400 jog recovery between the 400s. Felt good to get some volume in these legs.

Friday was relatively consistent. Hit 16:48 for the 1st 5K, 6:07 for the aerobic mile and 16:44 for the 2nd 5K. My splits went positive on the 1st rep and negative on the 2nd, so while I'm proud of that 2nd, I want to see them both in an agreement.

Sunday was pretty dialed back. I cruised the first 10 and then did a small progression on the final 10. Didn't get too crazy with it and ended up at 6:20 and 6:15 for the last two.

Looking good guys.

Tyler, you nailed that 2 x 5k workout. I don't think I'd be able to hang on for that second rep w/ such short rest.

Here was my week:

Mon - 9 mi easy

Tues - 9 mi easy

Wed - 10 mi easy

Thur - 2 mi easy + 2 x 2 mi (11:08, 11:09) w/ 2 min easy rest + 8 mi easy (6:45) + 2 mi (11:09) + 2 easy = 18 total

Fri - 8 mi easy

Sat - 11 mi easy

Sun - 20 mi progessive from 7:20 to 5:40 (last 3 - 5:52, 5:46, 5:40)

Total - 85 mi

The days after my workouts continue to be brutal, but I always feel fresh again by the next workout. I think my body is still adjusting to the hard workouts and bump in mileage.

Right now I'm only planning to do vo2 max work (1km or 1mi reps) once every two weeks. Do y'all think this is enough?

Hello all! I've set a moonshot goal for sub 2:30 at Boston. It's possibly not a sane goal, but I'm approaching it with the belief that I'm capable. This thread and it's predecessors have been the most positive and inspiring threads that I've ever read on LRC, so I'm hoping I can get some advice from people who are a step or two ahead of me :)

I'm a late starter, just beginning my fourth season as a runner, now 41 years old. This whole thing started with the crazy goal of going sub 3:00 a few years ago, which I've methodically gotten down to 2:38 at Boston last year as well as a 1:12:45 half at New Bedford, MA. I was likely in better shape for the marathon, but came down with this bizarre cellulitis in my shin and almost didn't race. So, the 2:38 was very conservative. I then missed my next "step up" in the Fall due to moving my family to a new state. I dug back in and got traction last September after registering for Boston and finished the year with about 4,150 miles. I'm off to a good start this year with four consecutive 100 mile weeks all on singles and some ok indicators.

Some early indicator workouts since Christmas (all pretty fatigued):

20 mi with 7 x 1 mi ~5:40/mi with 1 mi float, 6:20/mi overall

21 mi steady 6:20/mi

22 mi with 3 x 2 mi ~5:40 with 3:00 jog, 6:21/mi overall

16 mi with 4 x road mile ~5:29, slight hill, 2:00 jog, not feeling great but added four hill sprints

23 mi easy, time on feet

15 mi with 5 mi tempo ~5:41/mi hilly, steady finish, 6:08/mi overall

24 mi 6:33/mi with only two bowls of cereal for fuel, felt pretty relaxed

18 mi with 10 mi tempo ~5:49/mi hilly and under control, 6:12/mi overall

Otherwise, I have some hill workouts and ~1k repeats ~5:20/mi (or equivalent GAP). I know that this paints a picture of slower than 5:43/mi marathon pace, but I believe that I can still improve my economy in the next couple of months. Endurance is good right now, but I'm scared of doing any speed work. I seem to get run down and develop nagging injuries when I go faster than like 5:20 pace (hip/sciatica bullcrap). I'm a wicked slow twitcher and probably due to my age, my 10k/HM HR is only a few beats above MP (yeah 10k and HM are basically the same pace). I also have to admit that I let myself get stuck running around 6:50 all the time and only really run slower the day after a hard workout.

I know I should probably take a leap of faith and slow down my easy days. But for someone who doesn't seem to respond well to speed work, what should I be doing to improve my economy at 5:40 pace? If anyone has any advice, I'd be very grateful.

reed wrote:

this is the weirdest thing...why would you wear your worn-out shoes for recovery runs? That's when I care the most about my shoes feeling good. Why bother ever wearing the Hoka Cliftons if you don't like it until it loses the cushioning? Why not just wear firmer shoes?

They are not worn out. I never run more than 1000K in a pair and it's nothing for a running shoe with plenty of cushioning. I like Clifton a lot, it was my running shoe of the year in 2019 but it is not a shoe for slower paces. It was the best shoe for long runs that I tested during the whole year. I have tested semiprofessionally shoes for years now and I know quite well all the nuances when it comes to running shoes. Old max cushioned shoes are great for recovery runs because paces are slow. Every shoe pair gets slower after 400-500K and after that they are comfortable when you are not pushing. For example a friend of mine who is a quite fast marathon runner ran more than 1000 mls in a Peg Turbo version one and probably last 1000 kilometers were easy runs. First he did workouts and long runs, then when the shoe got bit older and slower, he continued to wear it for slow paces and the shoe was fine. So we are not talking about worn out shoes. My 500 mls or 1000K tests can be compared to the endurance tests that car magazines are doing. You don't have to throw a car away after 30000 miles if you know what you are doing. Same applies here.

Since you've had issues with your hip/sciatica, have you implemented any injury prevention exercises to your routine? That's been key to keeping me healthy right now and handling higher intensity work. You can also break down the time period that you're at that high intensity as well.

Here is an update from this pass week for me.

Monday: Off

Tuesday: 11.02 miles, 7:05 pace. 10 miles easy, 6x30sec on/30sec off

Wednesday: 10.37 miles, 6:37 pace. 3 E, 5 x2min on/90 sec easy, 5 x30sec on/1 min easy, 3 mile CD (2 min paces: 5:16, 5:14, 5:10, 5:06, 5:09) (30 sec paces: 4:15, 4:46, 4:46, 4:39)

Thursday: Total: 14 miles, AM: 4 miles easy (7:40 pace) PM: 10 miles easy (7:15 pace)

Friday: 7 miles easy (7:23 pace)

Saturday: 15 mile LR: 6:29 pace, 6 miles easy, 3 x1mile @MP w/ 1 mile float, 3 x 1min/2min easy, cooldown to 5. (Mile Paces: 5:35, 6:31, 5:31, 6:24, 5:32, 6:30), (1 min paces: 4:56, 4:50, 5:14 [uphill])

Sunday: 12 miles, 6:53 pace

Total: 69.5 miles

I've implemented some injury prevention/rehab to my daily routine and it's helped almost completely shake my IT band issue. Started noticing a small flareup on my achilles but I've been aggressively rehabbing that too and I don't feel it at this point. Will monitor this week and adjust if necessary.

Good call on the (p)rehab work. I did some PT last summer that I've fallen away from, though I do bridges, pelvic tilts and some... I think you might call them "flossing" exercises pre-run. I should get back to the evening routine though of theraband exercises.

@BigRoundNumbers - Welcome to the thread. You've had some incredible workouts so far. That's five 20+ milers since the New Year!

Looks like we'll have a strong group in Boston.

Saying you don't throw the car out after 30k miles is a terrible analogy. You absolutely do replace tires when they're worn out. Same applies to shoes. Just because the shoe isn't shredded to pieces doesn't mean it's doing it's job well. More than 500-600 miles most running shoes are done.

BigRoundNumbers wrote:

Hello all! I've set a moonshot goal for sub 2:30 at Boston.

. . . .

I know I should probably take a leap of faith and slow down my easy days. But for someone who doesn't seem to respond well to speed work, what should I be doing to improve my economy at 5:40 pace? If anyone has any advice, I'd be very grateful.

4,150 miles last year. That's 80 a week. Every week. That plus all those long run workouts shows you've definitely got a huge aerobic engine. Normally I'd say more miles and more tempos (at a variety of paces) will help you improve economy at race pace. But you've got that part covered.

As someone who also prefers long, grinder style workouts and can break down with speed, I'll just throw out what has helped me. And full disclosure, this would probably help me more if I did it more, so maybe I'm just typing at myself here.

Hip work. Get those bands back out. Do more single leg focused stuff. Just keep everything strong. I've found I need to do a small amount daily, but 3-4 more serious sessions each week.

Short hill sprints. Nothing fancy here, just 8-10 sprints up a steep hill that takes maybe 10" to do.

Relaxed "speed" work. These sessions have come to be my favorite. 200/200s on the track or 1 minute on/1 minute off out on a regular run. My whole goal with these is to run quickly, but not hard, and just move comfortably. I also set them up mentally so that if I'm struggling or over-reaching I just pull the plug and however many reps I got in was fine. Ideally I do 3-4 of these sessions a month. As much as I love cruising out on the roads, I'm surprised that I prefer the 200s on the track. I usually get 12 to 20 laps in and do the quick ones around 35-37 and the slow ones in the 50s (whatever's easy). Gets the legs moving and lets me sneak in a decent amount of work around 5 minute pace or faster, and still keeps things very aerobic.

Oh, and I would second slowing down the easy days. Which should be most days and not just the post-workout days. Hitting all your miles in the 6:xx's (in singles) could also be part of why you break down with faster stuff.

BigRoundNumbers wrote:

Hello all! I've set a moonshot goal for sub 2:30 at Boston. It's possibly not a sane goal, but I'm approaching it with the belief that I'm capable. This thread and it's predecessors have been the most positive and inspiring threads that I've ever read on LRC, so I'm hoping I can get some advice from people who are a step or two ahead of me :)

I PR'd (at the time) in Boston - 2:33 earned me something like 80th overall (not the slow/wet year, nor the fast/tailwind year). It's a good course to run fast if you're ready (and somehow, I was). If you're near hills, obviously that's ideal, but I think more than most races, it requires some longer sessions that get you ready to run MP in fatigue. A course like Houston or CIM that allows you to get into a rhythm over the back half isn't quite as demanding, in that regard, as Boston.

@Tyler_Runs_Lifts Thanks! Yeah, can't wait, this will be my third Boston. Such a good race.

@notasfastasyou The "relaxed speed" idea sounds great. Stretch out, but not feel like I need to throw out a hip in the process! I'll try the hill sprints as well. I did a handful of them a few weeks ago after reading this thread, but I'll try to incorporate them regularly to see if I notice progress. Maybe do something like Tuesday (hills, miles, 1ks, or a tempo), Friday hill sprints, Sunday long? Or would you do them as part of another workout, Tinman style?

@Alberto's Dog Luckily I'm up in Maine, where every run I do has at least one 1 mile long hill, haha. A couple of years ago I had a coach who would prescribe lots of hills with interesting stuff like 10 x 1/4 mi hill hard up AND down. Today I did 10 x ~2:42 hills working up to something like 10k HR (jog down) as part of a 16 miler. I'm hoping these big days will help. Last year at Boston I watched my HR closely and dialed it way back on the hills - even the little sharp ones in the first half. That seemed to work pretty well, but I still lost a lot of time after heartbreak.

BigRoundNumbers wrote:

@Alberto's Dog Luckily I'm up in Maine, where every run I do has at least one 1 mile long hill, haha. A couple of years ago I had a coach who would prescribe lots of hills with interesting stuff like 10 x 1/4 mi hill hard up AND down. Today I did 10 x ~2:42 hills working up to something like 10k HR (jog down) as part of a 16 miler. I'm hoping these big days will help. Last year at Boston I watched my HR closely and dialed it way back on the hills - even the little sharp ones in the first half. That seemed to work pretty well, but I still lost a lot of time after heartbreak.

Ah! I'm stuck in Chicago, so hills are an extreme luxury here. I'm confident that long reps like that will be beneficial. I would have to go back and look for sure, but I believe in my Boston race, all of my miles were within 5 seconds of each other, so I didn't exactly close hard - but I also didn't get blasted by those late hills (even though it sometimes feels like walking)! Running hard on the downhills (or just working harder downhills into your long runs) is great advice, though - something I was totally unprepared for.