Tell that to Mo.lol!
Tell that to Mo.lol!
I don't know how many guys run for Tinman, but it's likely to be too small of a sample size from which to draw any conclusions.
I believe that a big part of avoiding running injuries is genetic. Ritz was frequently injured while Rupp had none at all until the Achilles injury.
Deek did not run at 10 minute mile pace, probably not even his notorious slow first mile was that slow. He started off at 8 minute pace for a mile or two, then he was rolling 6 minute pace and under easy, over huge hills, for very long distances. He’d surge all the time up hills and along flats. You couldn’t hang with him on his long run for the entire distance unless you were a world class distance runner and a beast hill runner.
Even his easy 10 miles were hilly and he’d be running quite quick after two miles or so.
Don’t let witnessing his first mile fool you into thinking he ran that pace the whole way. No, he was a raging bull on all the hills and kept pushing the pace up and up every mile.
He put together years of training like this and was really, really strong. Dirt trail 22 mile runs, super hilly, surging every hill, cranking the pace each mile. He was a beast.
Other running groups must love letsrun.com for making possible the continuing infatuation with Tinman Elite!
While there are some solid comments in this current discussion thread, the tone for some is based on the same ol' schtick: using this message board to sling mud at those who are direct competitors/threats, or who, for one reason or another, aren't well liked or appreciated by the nameless poster.
"Time will tell" is the only tenet we can rely upon here. Meanwhile, I'll root for the boys from Boulder to heal up nicely and produce. It may not happen, but I'll root.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Jrididi wrote:
But they still take their easy days very easy. 7-8 minute pace. Sometimes slower. But they’re at altitude on rolling, hilly dirt roads. Maybe even that’s too fast. Kenyans much faster than Tinman Elite run their easy days a bit slower.
1) The Tinman all run ridiculously slow on their easy days for their performance level (keep in mind they are all running in the 28s for a 10k). 7:15-7:30 average on altitude, that's still very slow. So they definitely do not run too fast on their easy days, that's one of the key principles of Tinman's training (Hunter ran 7:00-7:30 on flat surface in HS btw all the way through senior).
2) It's a common misconception that running too hard on easy days is what leads to injuries. Yes, many HS kids run way too fast on easy days, same with recreational runners and even college runners. But can you tell for sure this was the reason if someone got seriously injured? From logging 7 min miles instead of 7:30? Truth is, more often than not it's hard workouts, hard surfaces, or going above and beyond in training compared to what has previously done that cause the body to break down and cause serious injury. Also running form is often responsible.
I'd be cautious with automatically assigning "too hard easy runs" for the cause of injuries, even if the easy runs were a tad too fast. More often than not, there are other forces behind injuries.
This ^^
I might burn out and race poorly when I take easy days too fast, but that's never what causes me to get injured . I'm very injury prone, and the injuries always always always pop up after a long effort on a hard surface or a hard fast workout.
Actually it's not a misconception. Running too hard on what is supposed to be an "Easy Day" does in fact lead to injury. Now becomes the question of what is actually "easy". It's easy to prescribe easy to the athlete based on how they feel that day but it would probably be much better if easy days were kept under 75% VO2 (Just my 2 cents)
Absolutely going to hard is also not good, but if one does go too hard in a workout, then extra precaution should be taken for the following days to allow muscle/ligament recovery.
Tinman himself has said, "the #1 mistake that high school runners make is running easy days too fast" -- and he says that it leads to injury. He says that they should be running 3 minutes slower than their mile pace -- or slower. So I take that to mean something like 6:30 or 7:00/mile for his elites -- on flat ground at sea level.
That said, I have no opinion about whether his guys are getting inured from running fast on easy days.
I guess critical velocity is zero
adidas Boost foam is their problem. The most unstable, mushy, hella vibrating foam. They all have lower leg issues stemming from Boost foam.
I bet if they wore the firmer adidas running shoe foam options they’d be fine.. oh wait.. adidas made every single god damn model with that whack foam!!
It's not that the assessment of anyone outside the Letsrun mancave matters, but the team talk about this in the recent RW portrait:
What Drew did in the lead-up to the USATF Championships isn’t unusual for an athlete of his caliber. “When you get on a roll with an injury, you have no choice but to train at a high level because you have this huge goal, and you choose not to back off like you otherwise would,” says Schwartz. But he agrees that he and Drew made mistakes with training and race preparation (including not getting the necessary maintenance in the spring for tight back and hip muscles that increased shock to his feet). Chalk it up to the coach not insisting on more therapy, and inexperience on the athlete’s part, says Schwartz.
Tinman is still young, and its members are still learning to read the signs of serious injury. “Drew needs more experience in terms of listening to his body and his coach, and staying on top of treatments for biomechanical issues, which are part of being a pro,” says Schwartz.
They’re lessons that all the Tinman can learn and that they, in turn, can teach their fans as they train for the upcoming Olympic trials and beyond. As Drew tweeted to his 9,000-plus followers: “Heart wanted to run but the body wasn’t ready. Thank you everyone. I’ll get this right for 2020.”
Boost is unstable wrote:
adidas Boost foam is their problem. The most unstable, mushy, hella vibrating foam. They all have lower leg issues stemming from Boost foam.
I bet if they wore the firmer adidas running shoe foam options they’d be fine.. oh wait.. adidas made every single god damn model with that whack foam!!
Absofrickinlutely, it's the shoes, not the "Keep the ball rolling" philosophy that is causing all these injuries.
most/some of the group is at the top level. injuries happen.
Shoe guy from the down side wrote:
Marshmallow Man wrote:
It's because most of these dudes run in Adidas. Those shoes are straight garbage
Yeah Adidas do not work work well for my foot type. I’ve had two pairs and been injured both times. I’ve had dozens of Brooks, ASICS, and Saucony and rarely get injured. Stay away from Adidas and Nike and your injuries will decrease imo.
You also probably pick their generic running shoes from both Adidas and Nike and get hurt.
Whyyyy wrote:
Jeff Thies is injured, Drew Hunter is injured, Reed Fisher couldn’t run Chicago because of injury and Par Samsons is just coming back.
Isn’t the motto ‘keep the ball rolling’ and to not go to hard. Why are so many of them seriously injured? I am genuinely a big fan of Tinman but am confused as to why so many of these runners are injured
It's incomprehensible how people can pay 200-250 bucks a month for this `CV`-crap!??
Not enough sound training, not enough hard work. There are many training groups in the U.S. and around the world that are much better than Tinman. I was always amazed not at their performances but their ability to self promote.
Up too late checking Instagram likes and thinking of clever captions and not sleeping enough
Most of their injuries have occurred in the same areas and at around the same time of the year, and there are actually some great lessons to learn from the misfortune of the Tinman guys. This will be a longer reply, becuase context is very important and seeing the whole picture may give some insight on how to mitigate these issues for other runners.
The normal Tinman workout is 3 tier'd. These workouts are LONG in comparison to their easy days, but they do properly prepare for them during the beginning of their training cycle (by not jumping up in volume too fast). During their "traditional Build-up" (winter/fall), they are on dirt roads 99% of the time and running in Adidas trainers (solar Boost/Glide), or well-cushioned flats (Bostons). It is fair to say that the Boost Material is very favorable to minimizing impact, so TME has great success with building a foundation and acquiring fitness while on the dirt roads and in well-cushioned shoes.
They also do strider variations 2-3 times per week. These are done during easy runs, so they are also in trainers. though they are improving their aerobic and anaerobic conditioning, there is clear neglect for the demands on the musculoskeletal system...specifically continued high-impact stress to the lower leg, which is consistent with a race.
TME doesn't touch a track until 2-3 weeks before their first track race. But like I said, their workouts are LONG and when they are on the track, it is very possible that they switch the shoes they would normally wear for a workout (due to the misconception that you should be hitting specific splits on the track or you "have to run fast"). This is normal for runners. Honestly, runners are pretty insecure about their training and would prefer to wear the shoes that give them the best chance to "hit their splits" or run workouts that "prove their fitness".
So, when they get on the track, they are in much more minimal shoes, for a long duration, and at a higher intensity. If athletes do not slowly integrate the stresses of training, they will significantly increase their chance of acquiring an acute injury.
Now, say that the TME guys are smarter than to run in ONLY spikes for 5-7miles of work, without having integrated the use of spikes or minimal flats, which can easily be done during their Strider days...just end at a track and do 4-6 by 100m-200m in flats or spikes. Say they only do 3-4miles of work in spikes/flats, but then continue their workout in something with more cushion...the lower leg has already experienced acute stress that is above its norm and then been pushed towards fatigue with the additional workout in cushioned flats...that is going to require more recovery modalities than the workouts they had performed previously. This should not be a problem for Drew, Sam, Reed and jordan...as they do not work day jobs and have the time/resources to properly recover and adapt to the new demands they have placed on their bodies. But for the other guys, they go from the workout to their day jobs, which is another stressor. No matter the job, they have a decreased availability to recover tools and time. So they will start the next day at a deficit, compared to the aforementioned 4 TME members. Eventually this cycle, if not properly addressed, can cause an injury...most likely in the calf or foot...which is were a majority of their injuries have been in the recent past.
The best way to avoid this cycle is to slowly introduce the body to the increased stress of wearing racing shoes (Spikes or road flats). This allows the athlete to properly recover and adapt to stress and be capable of handling more in the future. It isn't rocket science, but it isn't as simple as "run slow on easy days" or "run moderate workout intensities"...training is all about applying and adapting to stressors. They need to wear spikes/flat throughout the year and not wait to throw them on for glamorous workouts.
ExPhys wrote:
Actually it's not a misconception. Running too hard on what is supposed to be an "Easy Day" does in fact lead to injury. Now becomes the question of what is actually "easy". It's easy to prescribe easy to the athlete based on how they feel that day but it would probably be much better if easy days were kept under 75% VO2 (Just my 2 cents)
Absolutely going to hard is also not good, but if one does go too hard in a workout, then extra precaution should be taken for the following days to allow muscle/ligament recovery.
Too much stress causes injuries. If that is from running your easy runs at 6:30 instead of 7 or if it is from running 10 miles instead of 12, or from doing 5x1 mile at 5k pace is just how you cause the stress. I would hazard to guess that very few injuries are from 1 workout (i.e. exceptions for things like twisting ankles and the like) but most are accumulations of the past 2+ weeks of training. If you are fully recovered, the workout you blame for your injury wouldn't have caused the injury. You get injured because on that particular day you are only at say 85% instead of 90%, and the extra stress takes you out. That little bit less than normal can be a result of too hard training, poor recovery (i.e. you didn't sleep well, poor eating, hydration). Seems like Tinman is doing a really poor job of keeping them this side of the stress line but it is a very hard thing to do. The line between doing enough to be competitive and not enough to get injured is very fine.
Keep the ball rolling sounds great. It has been said dozens of times by various coaches in various ways over the years. Executing is very hard.
Mahavishnu1500 wrote:
You can't group all Kenyans into running easy days a certain way. It varies group by group, individual by individual, and day by day. Jogging 4-5 days a week every week of the year does not make one a champion.
Jrididi wrote:
But they still take their easy days very easy. 7-8 minute pace. Sometimes slower. But they’re at altitude on rolling, hilly dirt roads. Maybe even that’s too fast. Kenyans much faster than Tinman Elite run their easy days a bit slower.
Someone who jogs 4-5 days a week beats someone who trains too hard and can't start or finish the race due to injury. So, in a head up race, the jogger is a champion.
Jrididi wrote:
Hayduke wrote:
Moderate hard workouts tricks you into thinking you don’t have to go easy on your easy days.
But they still take their easy days very easy. 7-8 minute pace. Sometimes slower. But they’re at altitude on rolling, hilly dirt roads. Maybe even that’s too fast. Kenyans much faster than Tinman Elite run their easy days a bit slower.
I have coached a lot of Kenyans at quite high level ( Winners of international halfs and marathons) and I can guarantee you most of the top runners run faster than 7-8 min pace at the days main easy pace session . 6- 6:30 min pace is quite usual pace among the top Kenyan elite runners I coach and have coached , and then we of course have to add they are up at high altitude.
- Mzungu Magic -