japanese runner did 500k/310 miles the last 13 days before running 2:10

otter wrote:

zzzz wrote:

No personal attack intended.

My point of view comes from not understanding why you think you more more about this guy's training than this guy or his coach. From my point of view, you are some random anonymous poster. Why should I assume you know more about training this guy than he himself or his coach? Why not assume better expertise on the part of the Japanese, who produce way more sub-2:10 guys?

Training methods are not magical or mysterious. There a reason why things work or why they don't work.

There are always more efficient ways to do things. My point being is that I believe that he could accomplish the same performance or better without the enormous volume

i'm going to assume that by efficiency you mean getting the same result with less work done and time spent. Correct me if I'm wrong, and also that you are saying that being more efficient is good. I think this point shows an interesting difference between Japanese marathon thinking and ours.

I have a friend who coached one of their corporate teams once and he told me that when US runners think about getting ready for racing they usually try to think of the minimum amount of running they can do to get the results they want, i.e, to be efficient. But Japanese runners are more likely to think in terms of how much training they can do without destroying themselves.

Efficiency is not a goal and not seen as particularly desirable. to hem. The idea is that being efficient and doing the minimum work required is not guaranteed to bring the optimal result so it's better to do more and make sure you've done enough. From this perspective it would be better to do 150 mile training weeks than 120 mile ones even if each produced the same result because with the 120 mile weeks you'd wonder if maybe 150, or more, would have produced a better result.

An obvious counter point here would be to suggest that maybe the 120 mile weeks would actually produce a better result than the 150 or more weeks do. Possibly that's true. It certainly could be true for individual runners here and there. But the Japanese experience for decades has been that their best marathon runners have been the ones who have done the most miles so most of them who aspire to be among their best also aspire to do the kind of mileage that their top marathon runners have done historically. If there came a time when the majority of their sub 2:10 runners were running lower mileage I imagine that in time, others would run less as well. But for now that's not happening and if you ask Japanese runners and coaches why they produce so many more fast marathoners than the US does most will tell you it's because we mistakenly pursue efficiency in our marathon training while they see value in every training mile.

Japanese training reflects perfectly the japanese work culture, extreme inefficiency, just spend a lot of time working pretty hard, not just long, but don't work efficiently.

Thank you for posting a viewpoint with substance.

I understand the traditional Japanese training system, it's origin, and ideals. I know as you do of Lydiard's teachings that you can run around 160K at "steady state." Beyond that he felt that easy running was beneficial and you can not do too much. I know Nakamura was influenced by that.

Nobody can doubt Seko's success at the time. But, there have been successful Japanese runners that were not training with high volume even at the time. I remember Nakayama's training being somewhat mysterious in the late 80's. Nobody seems to remember him for some reason?

I don't think he was doing the same volume of training as Seko. Correct me if I am wrong? I know Kawauchi 's training is less than 100 miles per week. I don't think Osako is running extreme volume either.

I think the volume did not bother him because it was so slow, but, I don't think it helped either. I'm not sure that it did not bother him though, nor could anyone else be. Maybe he could have been faster?

I am definitely not a fan of low mileage schedules but I would never believe that weekly mileage of over 200 miles per week is needed. And yes, I don't think there is anyone out there benefiting from over 170 miles per week.

I had dinner with Nakayama a few years ago. We needed an interpreter but even when we were alone we found things to laugh at even though we couldn't talk to each other. He was a blast to hang out with. Yes, he ran less and a bit faster overall than Japanese marathoners normally did. He had more of a track background than most. But he still ran more than most US marathon runners did.

And as far as I can tell, he did not set off a revolution in Japanese training methods. There was no stampede to fewer miles done a bit faster. Similarly, as popular as Kawauchi is there has been no rush to imitate him. (I'd love to know what he's doing now that he has no job. If someone would publish a book of training profiles of Japanese runners I'd buy it in a second.) I know you're right, not all of them do the same thing. There was a Boston Globe article decades ago about Hideki Kita when he was running Boston that said he ran 10 to 15 kilometers a day. Not sure I buy that but anyway...

I think all of us here would agree that running more miles makes you faster, that running even more miles will do the same but in increasingly smaller increments, that there's some point where even that improvement stops and maybe even reverses. Where we'd argue is when you try hanging specific numbers onto those points. You seem to have 170 mile weeks at the top of your scale. Many people here would say 100, 120, 140. Others might say 200. Maybe it's not necessary for Fukuda to run as much as he does but it seems obvious that it's working.

That’s awesome you were able to meet him. I remember watching him in the 88 Olympics. I was routing for him to catch Salah after he had been dropped for third place. He came up short thee but what a race that was!

I also remember watching Wakiihuri who interestingly enough trained in Japan Instead of Kenya. I seem to remember him being trained by Nakumura. He only broke 2:10 once but he was like a Meb of his day in his ability to win on a big stage.

I would also buy that book in a second.

Correct me if I'm wrong but diminishing return is still a return, no?

On the opposite side Hideaki Yamauchi ran 6:18 for 100k on 60-70mpw. This Fukuda probably just Hjálmarday, effective or not.

On the opposite side Hideaki Yamauchi ran 6:18 for 100k on 60-70mpw. This Fukuda probably just enjoys running all day, effective or not.

Hjálmar wrote:

On the opposite side Hideaki Yamauchi ran 6:18 for 100k on 60-70mpw. This Fukuda probably just enjoys running all day, effective or not.

Well, there's a difference between a 2:09 guy like Fukuda and amateur Yamauchi who's PB after several attempts is 2:18. I mean, while Fukuda currently is the 93th fastest japanese marathoner of all time there have to be more than 1000 japanese runners who have run faster than Yamauchi (the IAAF list ends with 2:12:00, which currently is equivalent to rank 230). A better comparison would be the already mentioned Kawauchi, who obviously tried to compensate by running a lot of races.

Also as already pointed out in this thread it isn't just Fukuda who does that kind of mileage in japan, so I wouldn't speculate if he enjoys it after all (in fact I seriously doubt it).

Do you know what Yamauchi's best marathon is? I've never been able to find it.

HRE wrote:

Do you know what Yamauchi's best marathon is? I've never been able to find it.

Never mind. Vision is not my best working sense.

Our friend did it again. 2:10:32.

More than 1100k for the last 4 week's...

So no news ;)

curious1986 wrote:

Our friend did it again. 2:10:32.

More than 1100k for the last 4 week's...

So no news ;)

Nice! In miles, his last four weeks were 201.1 miles, 202.7 miles, 151.4 miles, and 137.4 miles (including the marathon). His last marathon, the one the original post was referring to, was two months ago on Dec. 1st. That was a 2:10:33, so one second faster this time.

zzzz wrote:

curious1986 wrote:

Our friend did it again. 2:10:32.

More than 1100k for the last 4 week's...

So no news ;)

Nice! In miles, his last four weeks were 201.1 miles, 202.7 miles, 151.4 miles, and 137.4 miles (including the marathon). His last marathon, the one the original post was referring to, was two months ago on Dec. 1st. That was a 2:10:33, so one second faster this time.

His target was sub 2:09 and he ended up with knee pain... Guy is talented but he should train smarter and take some time between races to hit an impressive time (relative to Japanese standards).

He just signed with NN Running team. Curious to see how fast he can get with better training enviroment after building a huge base

theok wrote:

He just signed with NN Running team. Curious to see how fast he can get with better training enviroment after building a huge base

The first dude from Japan for NN?

Nevertheless awesome to see, although has some ground to make up on Osako and company.

Yes, according to the media release. It mentions he has the possibility to train in Kiplagat, and I think it would be interesting to see if he can make big gains deciding to go from high mileage to more mainstream training methods ( if he decides to do so).

I assume Osako has a different training approach, but he is certainly on another level.

I have had a look at Fukuda on Strava

I don't understand his heart rate data. He is running slow 8 min miles, yet his hr is high, threshold, even becoming anaerobic. Even during cool downs his hr is over 170 bpm.

Am I missing something here?

Looking at his marathon stats on Strava.

His first 2K are sub 4 min mile (GAP)!