10k T twice a week?

My heart rate monitor is about 4yesrs old, and could be well time for a new one. I have an Garmin now, doesnt anyone know if the wahoo is any good?

Came off a 12hr night shift and only had a few hours of sleep in the morning so knew I might not have much mental energy going into this one. Started off with every intention to do 10k and went a little faster than my last one through 5k in 16:35 with HR at 166. So I new I physiologically had enough reserves to push to a strong sub 33min. However, at 6.5k my heart rate was at 170 and I felt my mental resolve to withstand the discomfort was greatly waning. I backed off the pace at 7k to see if I could get enough motivation to grind the last 3k out but by 8k I decided to throw in the towel and save myself for another effort on Friday when I won't be coming off of a night shift. Finished the 8k in 26:45 (3:20 pace) with a max HR of 174. Wasn't close to physically grinding to a stop, just more discomfort than I was willing to deal with.

Did another 10k T this morning which makes for the 7th 10k time trial in the last 23 days (3 days ago was only able to do 8k). This one a new training PB in 32:38 with an average HR of 161 and max of 177. This felt like the easiest, most in control effort yet and also had the slowest heart rate climb. My body weight has also dropped about 4lbs in this time (was up several lbs going through the holidays and poor diet). The progression has been 34:54, 34:37, 34:05, 32:57, 33:13. 32:53, (8k 26:45), 32:38. So will keep going with this regiment for probably another few weeks and see how it goes.

One or two workouts at close to 10K race pace per week?

Doesn't sound sustainable - and seems a sure-fire recipe for compromised recovery and sub-optimal performances.

Ernest wrote:

One or two workouts at close to 10K race pace per week?

Doesn't sound sustainable - and seems a sure-fire recipe for compromised recovery and sub-optimal performances.

I'm recovering much better now than when I first started and fitness feels like it's going through the roof. Very hard to even run slow on recovery days. The day after my tt 4 days ago I did 20k at 4min/km pace and wasnt even trying to go fast. Before, after doing say a 10k race I would be pretty sub par for a longer period post, but forcing myself to do a tt every 3 days seems to have greatly improved my recovery capability.

why not start doing actual races, with a week taper?

There's a half marathon I will likely do beginning of Feb depending on how the weather is. Although I will be going on vacation to Mexico for 10 days and coming back the day before the race so might be a few pounds heavier if I get my monies worth from food and booze while away! But feeling pretty good about the season for this year. Lots of races upcoming.

Did another 10 k today in 32:10, almost 28s faster than three days ago. Avg heart was 2 higher at 163 with a max of 177. So still have some extra that I could have done as far as pure effort is concerned. Feig about the same effort as the last one, maybe slightly more. Form feels much better from each time trial, staying more relaxed at faster speed.

10k TT today in 31:59 with avg HR 164, Max 180ish. This was five days since my last one in 32:10, so a 10s improvement and an avg HR increase of one for the effort. Felt very in control until last k which I had to dig hard to finish at low 3min pace.. I did no runs on wed and thursday d/t work schedule and only got an 8k in last night with a few strides. Legs felt very sluggish and heavy last night, I guess from not having run the previous two days and having had busy days at work. I also did squats at the gym on tues which I haven't done for months and my glutes were feeling pretty wrecked on wed and thursday. Feel pretty good post run now though!

10k tt in exact same time as three days ago, 31:59 and same avg HR at 164 (max 177) although it hit a higher number earlier in the run as I started off a little faster. I temporarily slowed and almost gave up at 8k before deciding to grind out the last two km. Legs were definitely sub par for this one as I did a 20k run two days ago and averaged 3:50 pace. That was the day after the last 10k tt. Had meant to just do 20k at an easy pace but just ended up cruising along faster as it was feeling really good. Still a good wo but for sure will take it easy the next couple of days so I can get some better recovery.

Did a another 10k tt in 32:06 today. Slightly slower than 3 days ago but was a much easier effort. Avg HR was 163, max 180 and HR was lower than the last one especially up to 7k, Was a little more cautious up to 5k as was afraid of blowing up like the last time. So, felt very strong the whole way though and looking back I probably could have pushed harder through the middle part as I still had a lot of gas at the finish, just ran out of time to get some quicker k's in before 10k was up.

I raced bikes for few years some time back, and wouldn't train for it.

I'd just start racing at a certain point every year, and it HURT. One other time during the week I'd ride a little bit hard. After a few months, I'd be racing real fast. It still hurt, as they say, but I was much faster.

This isn't rocket science. 2x10K weekly can work. So can lots of other things.

anyone do this? wrote:

If I'm a mid to low 34 min 10k runner, is it possible to get a good training effect doing a sub 35min run once or twice a week?

I did it once per week at 6 miles and made great improvements when I was 21/22. I tried to search LR, because I think I once posted a sequence of my times, but I couldn't find. Might have to dig up the training log. I started around where you were, and worked them down to sub-5:00 pace.

Tempos worked for me. I was not an interval guy, probably because I tended to run them too hard. The length of 6 mile tempos automatically kept the intensity in control.

zzzz wrote:

anyone do this? wrote:

If I'm a mid to low 34 min 10k runner, is it possible to get a good training effect doing a sub 35min run once or twice a week?

I did it once per week at 6 miles and made great improvements when I was 21/22. I tried to search LR, because I think I once posted a sequence of my times, but I couldn't find. Might have to dig up the training log. I started around where you were, and worked them down to sub-5:00 pace.

Tempos worked for me. I was not an interval guy, probably because I tended to run them too hard. The length of 6 mile tempos automatically kept the intensity in control.

That sounds like it must have been a pretty amazing progression! With the interval training I've done before it was very hard to increase my speed week to week and it seems I would often get slower despite doing hard wo's. And then doing races I would feel like I was in unknown territory cause I was never sure how it was all going to come together. And now doing a 10k full effort every few days I've knocked my time down by 3min in 5 weeks. I'm probably due to take a week of easy just to make sure to catch up on recovery but I'm really amazed at how well I've been recovering from these race effort wor's done so frequently. The recovery even seems better than when I was doing reg interval wo's twice a week. I think part of the key for me is just having my heart sustained for a long duration as compared to intervals where it takes half the interval just to get your heart rate to a decent level.

I saw this thread title pop up a while ago and thought, why would anyone do that? That's silly.

Then I kept seeing it and finally opened it up and read through it today. Your results are fascinating. Thanks for the regular updates.

I did have a couple questions. What did your training look like before you started the 10k time trials? And how much volume are you doing right now? Given your descriptions of your runs it sounds like somewhere around 100 to 120k a week?

My training before this experiment was very Jack Daniel'ish. I've worked though a number of his plans and recently up to the beginning of October of last year was doing one of his half marathon custom plans through his runsmart program. And I had zero improvement after 12 weeks on it. My half marathon time actually went down by a minute in the fall race I had been training for (mid 76min). Since then I just continued on with similar wo's on my own. You're absolutely right, I usually do between 100- 120k / week. Sometimes a little more or a little less. I've also knocked my longest run of the week down to 20k instead of 25- 30k. And I've also frequently been doing those runs at sub 4min/k pace. I would have thought this regiment completely unsustainable beyond a couple weeks before starting this and all my training partners and even a coach with a low 27min pb said it was nuts.

By HM time went down by a minute I mean it got slower by a minute lol

Very cool stuff. So in addition to your time trials, you've made your daily mileage more equal in distance and you have picked up the pace of the runs overall.

I agree with what you heard from others, it doesn't sound like a good idea. And it's far from modern, mainstream training.

I wish HRE or one of the other old timers would jump in here. I'm sure there are tons of examples of people training in similar ways.

And bottom line, if you're having fun with it and seeing progress, there's no reason not to keep it up. You should definitely jump in a half marathon soon. But maybe one you're rested for and not after holiday.

I had the experience of getting slower with intervals too. In high school, intervals would wreck me so much that it'd take two weeks to recover from an interval workout. My coach didn't know what to do. He eventually just sent me out on a long run on interval days. Like I said in my first post, I probably ran intervals too hard (but I never faded as the reps went on while doing them). Maybe it could have worked with better control using things like HR monitors (expensive, not widely available when I was in HS), but a long enough tempo like 6 mile/10K made that automatic. I wonder if a lot of talent in the US never come to light because they respond this way to intervals, and thus never make it to the next level? For me at least that's what happened.

I found my sequence of 6 milers that I posted in an older thread:

I had a strong base: In 1990, I ran 106 mpw the first half of the year, all easy singles (20 milers daily for much of it), and 82 mpw the second half of the year (included about ten not impressive interval sessions).

In 1991, I found I loved doing 6 mile tempo runs, and that replaced the interval sessions. I did some of them easy, some harder, depending on how I felt. I averaged 79 mpw for the year (plus cycling, such as a random 100 miler coming from a guy that started out as a cyclist), though it was more like 90-100 mpw when I was running fastest. I did these as the first part of an out-and-back 12 (to 14) miler, without a warm up, and in training shoes.

6 mile tempo runs:

Jan: 35, 36, 32, 31:42

Feb: 31:50

March: 31:00, 30:38

April: 32:34, 30:40

May: 34:32, 32:49, 31:18

June: 33:02, 32:33

Sept: 31:56

Oct: 30:36, 31:40, 30:58, 30:38

Nov: 32:15, 29:28, 31:02

Dec: 29:47

The summer months were generally slower because they were on an uphill route in the heat.