Sub 1:25 training plan

50 miles with progression runs wrote:

You don't need a plan. You just need to run a fair bit and try harder in a race.

You're already in 1:25 shape.

That's kind of what I was thinking. With a 38min 10k.. 1:25 shouldn't be that hard. Just run a bunch, run fast one day a week and run long on the weekend. Don't overdo it.

UA Runner wrote:

50 miles with progression runs wrote:

You don't need a plan. You just need to run a fair bit and try harder in a race.

You're already in 1:25 shape.

That's kind of what I was thinking. With a 38min 10k.. 1:25 shouldn't be that hard. Just run a bunch, run fast one day a week and run long on the weekend. Don't overdo it.

My PR was 38 mid so a little slower and the was a year ago. I am probably just getting back to that shape. I’ll try not to overdo it but best case scenario is I train really hard the next 12 weeks and smash 1:25 so not the worse thing in the world. I have been running relatively low mileage so not too worried about injury.

thewinthatwas wrote:

My PR was 38 mid so a little slower and the was a year ago. I am probably just getting back to that shape. I’ll try not to overdo it but best case scenario is I train really hard the next 12 weeks and smash 1:25 so not the worse thing in the world. I have been running relatively low mileage so not too worried about injury.

Just saying.. as a guy who has run 1:24~1:26 a bunch. I don't know if I ever ran HMP pace in training for any sustained period. It's the classic line, "Well if you can't run 6:29/mi in training for 5 miles, how can do you do it in a race for 13?" I don't know, you just do. Run a 5k as hard as you can and that will indicate where you should be for a 10k. Run a 10k targeting that pace, and if you succeed, it's an indicator as to what you should be able to do in a half. The fitness will come together on race day, as a result of working on all the various parts (speed, strength, recovery, endurance etc) for the months leading up to the race.

1st Suggestion: I think you're doing workouts too early in the training. After a 2 week post-season break, I take 4-6 weeks to build my mileage back up before starting workouts, and even then they're very light workouts like a 20 minute fartlek and 20 minute tempo. My half marathon PR for reference is 1:22:09.

2nd Suggestion: Move the 2nd workout to Friday. One easy day between workouts is not sufficient recovery. There's a reason why almost every professional and good collegiate runner does workouts on Tuesdays and Fridays with a Sunday long run. It just works.

3rd Suggestion: Try running consistent mileage rather than steadily building up. Take the 4-6 weeks to build up to 60-65 mpw, of just mileage, no workouts. Then ease into the workouts with very light workouts at first.

4th Suggestion: Never do an all-out workout. Try to never go beyond 80% in a workout. The key is consistency, not just trying to hit a couple big weeks or workouts before the taper. The weekly tempo is good, but try to start them at marathon pace and work down and increase the pace if you feel good. And for Tuesdays try to do some longer intervals like 1ks and 2ks with short rest like 200m and 400m jog, respectively. Start the intervals around half marathon pace then listen to your body and pick up the pace if you feel good. It's a great feeling when you finish the last 1k under 5k pace.

robert678 wrote:

. It's a great feeling when you finish the last 1k under 5k pace.

It shouldn't be. It means you didn't run hard enough.

I think you’ll be fine if you do what you aim to. Personally, with your 4 miles of 5:53 or whatever on the treadmill - based on my experience, I’d be aiming for sub 1:21 in a half assuming you have the stamina and you had no incline or I’d be aiming to go faster! I feel like garbage for weeks after a full so don’t know how you bounce so quick but genetics and maybe age. I may be conventional or old fashioned but you have many weeks of varying length intervals which I would think would make me peak, plateau and possibly slow down before your goal race. I would only do 4-6 weeks or so of the rep type quality workouts before the race. Also, I would be getting as much tempo running in as I could. You are doing a lot of race pace which I would think a bit slow. I would pick it up somewhere between a Daniels style tempo pace or CV pace at appropriate durations. I prefer CV. (And do some long runs). Again, I think if you toe the line as fit as you seem to be you will be fine and my comments are based on my experience. Finally, don’t know anything about you but we tend to focus a lot on workouts and paces and times etc. Truth is that for most recreational runners, weight is the biggest factor. If I want to get fast quickly, weight loss is generally the quickest way there. Daniels has suggested that if training is going well, a runner might expect roughly a 5sec/mile improvement per month on their tempo pace. At 180lbs in 180mins for a marathon (3 hour pace), that’s roughly one lb per minute. If I lose 5 lbs of useless fat, that’s roughly 5 minutes. That’s more than 2 minutes off my half time. Daniels says about one minute is a good response to training per month (5 secs off your tempo pace x 13.1 miles) - that’s roughly half of what I can expect by just losing 1.25lbs of fat per week which is not aggressive. Usually means eating less carbs , modest portions/not pigging out and running a lot - regardless of paces.... just saying, that’s my experience as an old fat guy who thinks he’s about 1:28 right now but hoping to PR with a sub 1:17 this year. Good luck!

Week 7

2/3

On the treadmill

7 miles @ 7:57

2/4

Track workout 9.37 miles

2 mile warm up/steady @ 6:29

4.26 miles @6:04

1 mile 5:47.2

.38 miles 2:35.3

1 mile 5:53.3

.38 miles 2:35.4

1 mile 5:48.9

.38 miles 2:36.4

.13 miles 34.8

3.11 miles @ 6:55

Very chill jogging after

2/5

On treadmill

5 miles @ 8:11

2/6

This was suppose to be a HMP workout but I blew up. My body did not feel right and I knew warming up for the effort that there was 0 chance that I was going to complete the workout but I still gave it a go.

On treadmill 10 miles

2 mile warm up @ 6:52

1 mile @ 6:13 (knew I was done after 1 did not want to risk it so I just decided to do 7 easy miles in addition to the warmup and 1 mile)

7 miles @ 7:56

2/7

10 miles @ 7:46

2/8

Double

13.11 miles @ 7:23

Treadmill

6.21 miles @ 7:30

2/9

On the treadmill

10 miles @ 6:48

Total miles 70.69

So some things have changed. Instead of running a half marathon I will be running a full marathon. I know that this is kind of dumb but I want to qualify for Chicago and I cannot do that in the half, so I decided to go for the full while I am in shape for it. So, I will need to shift my training a bit to hit this new goal. I will be aiming to run in the 65-75 mile range and try to peak at 80-85 miles for my weekly mileage. I have also decided to stop doing 2 workouts a week. This is for two reasons. The first is my body is just taking too much of a beating. Tuesday I felt like I was not at full strength so I backed off a little and finished the workout fine. Thursday was a different story I was toast and just realized that the two workouts was not sustainable (like a lot of you have said). The second reason is I do not think it will be great for marathon training. So instead I will be doing either long intervals (3 *2 miles 2*3 miles 3*3 miles 1*8 miles at 10-20 seconds faster than MP) or a marathon pace effort run of 6-10 miles once a week). This feels more marathon specific and will save my body. Also if anyone is wondering about the bump in mileage. I always feel good running high mileage so I just did a bunch of miles without looking at my watch to finish the week. Getting the extra miles in without having any specific distance or paces in mind was great.

Week 8

2/10

On the treadmill

11 miles @7:04

2/11

10K @8:23

2/12

Scheduled off day

2/13

Workout on treadmill (long intervals)

Total miles 12.61 miles

Total workout out was 9.41 miles in 1 hours or 6:22 pace

warm up 2 miles @ 7:13

No break

2 miles @6:15

.25 miles @7:30

2 miles @6:07

.25 miles @7:19

2 miles @5:40

finished out the last .9 miles in the hour in about 6 minutes

Steady 3.2 miles @6:56

2/14

13.1 miles @7:14

2/15

On the treadmill

10 miles @7:29

2/16

On treadmill double

Total miles 13

AM 8 @7:45

PM 5@7:14

Total miles 65-66ish miles

Overall it was a solid week. I think the one workout will benefit me well going forward. I feel like the speed is there and the overall weekly mileage is going well but I do need to start making the long run a focus. Ultimately I want to do a long run of 22 miles before the race. Ideally I would get an 18 20 and 22 in before the marathon (see previous post. I am doing a marathon now). However, I do have a dilemma. I am racing a 10K on 3.7.20 and then the goal marathon in 4.19.20. I do not know how to schedule my long runs leading up to the race. I want to solidify my last 9 weeks of training but I have been struggling over my schedule.

This is the long run schedule I am thinking right now:

Week 1 18 miles

Week 2 14 miles (stay fresh for 10K race)

Week 3 10k race

Week 4 12 miles (recover from race)

Week 5 18 miles

Week 6 20 miles

Week 7 22 miles

Week 8 12 miles

Week 9 Marathon

Any thoughts?

I ran a 1:25 half last spring and I was at nowhere near the volume or quality you are posting. ~35 mile weeks with the odd slow (8:30-8:45) long run maxing out at 14 miles. Did a 5k tempo (Parkrun) or race most weeks. Rest of mileage was easy jogging. 1:25 felt fairly comfortable off that. It was a fast and flat course though. I was 51 (52 now). As others have said, based off your PRs and training you should be aiming for quite a bit faster than 1:25.

easydoesit wrote:

I ran a 1:25 half last spring and I was at nowhere near the volume or quality you are posting. ~35 mile weeks with the odd slow (8:30-8:45) long run maxing out at 14 miles. Did a 5k tempo (Parkrun) or race most weeks. Rest of mileage was easy jogging. 1:25 felt fairly comfortable off that. It was a fast and flat course though. I was 51 (52 now). As others have said, based off your PRs and training you should be aiming for quite a bit faster than 1:25.

Same. I'm the hobbiest of joggers. 15 mile long run around 8min pace. I averaged 45mpw for 3 months and ran a 2:56:xx (1:30/1:26 splits) for my first marathon. My 10k pr was 39:20 was 8 weeks before marathon. The OP doesn't seem to put him or herself in the pain cave during a race as they are insanely underperforming which granted is a shame given the amount of time it takes to run 70 miles a week.

Yeah, I think the reality is that I have not entered a race when I was primed to run a fast time. The 1:28 half was after I had trained for an ultra marathon where the main goal was to run tons of mileage. So, I ran that on very tired legs and never did any kind of speed training. 45 mpw for 3 months and running a 2:56 (congrats you have a lot of talent). Like most people are saying I am underestimating my fitness. Prime example is I did a 10 mile run (400 ft of elevation gain) on tire legs at 6:33 pace. Completely by feel, did not look at my splits. So yeah, I am in much better shape than I thought. However, I know all about the pain cave. I consistently was running back to back 20 mile runs when I trained for a 50 miler. I got second place in the race. So, while I have not had the opportunity to put myself in the pain cave on the roads I know all about it from the trails. Hopefully, I can go sub 3 in the marathon in 2 months and I can happily say you were all right.

I have run a few ultras in my time,and race quite a bit across a lot of distances.

IMHO There is a world of difference between the "pain cave" of an ultra, which is more a dull fatigued pain with everything wanting to to just stop running (FWIW, I run 100miles in under 18 hours, so not amazing, but not walking...)

The pain cave for a marathon is very different, after half waysish again you want to stop but everything hurts a bit more intensely. but just about manageable until the end where you and it ramps up.

And the pain cave for the short stuff, which is just intense pain everywhere and feels unmanageable and then its over...

Keep going though, you look like you are coming into good shape and I think you will surprise yourself (and others here if you post back your result)

Week 9

2/17

10 miles @6:33

This run came out of nowhere. I was just doing a steady 10 miles and not looking at my splits. I felt really good after 2 miles so I kinda just pushed a little harder. By the end of the run I was very surprised.

2/18

Double

11.33 miles @7:15 (I got caught in the middle of a rainstorm. I planned on running slower but there was a flash flood and at one point I ran through water up to my knee. So, I was splitting a few sub 7 minute miles to get home).

On treadmill

5 miles @7:43

2/19

On treadmill

7 miles @7:15

2/20

Work dinner went long so I had an off day and planned on pushing my workout to Friday.

2/21

Track workout 12 miles

The plan was 2 mile warm up and then 2 by 5k with 0.5 miles active recovery between reps then 0.25 miles of active recovery and a mile to end the workout. The 5ks were going to be hm effort and the mile was going to be 2 mile to 5k effort.

Pacing has been really tough because I do not know my fitness level and it has changed a lot through this cycle. I did the warmup without looking at my watch and averaged 6:36 for 2 miles so I settled in for around 6:15 pace for the 5ks. I am posting a picture of the effort below.

2 miles @6:36

Workout

https://ibb.co/F3hsLpf

2 miles@7:05

2/22

18 miles @ 7:27

Very chill long run. Legs were a little sore the first 6 miles because I did my workout on Friday but otherwise the miles went by effortlessly and did not feel like I was pushing very hard. Had a lot left in the tank at the end of the run.

2/23

On the treadmill

12 miles @ 7:29

Total miles: 75ish

Things are going great. No injuries and the workouts seem to be going well. I have my 10K race in 2 weeks. Then the marathon 6 weeks later. My original goal for the 10K was 36:35 (1 second faster than my PR but based off my track workout this week (I split a 38:21 during the workout) I know that my fitness is much better than I thought it would be at this point. So, I am aiming to go sub 37:30. I am going to cut down a little on the mileage to recover from these past three weeks and get my body prepared for the 10k. After that race I will be focusing on long runs and consistently hitting 65+ miles a week for 4 weeks then taper for the marathon. Also pretty pumped that I was able to hit 75 miles this week with only 6 days of running.

I think you could run sub 36 or you just train too hard.

Would be interesting to see some workouts like 4 x 2 k or 3 x 3 k or something.

CaptainPhillips wrote:

"Well if you can't run 6:29/mi in training for 5 miles, how can do you do it in a race for 13?" I don't know, you just do.

This is one of the great mysteries of running to me. My half PR is OP's goal (1:25 a few years ago). I like to think I can push myself pretty hard but even at my fittest and healthiest in the build-up to that race, if you asked me to hold that pace for as long as possible I doubt I'd have made it much more than six or seven miles. Race day adrenaline is a powerful thing I guess.

Might be training too hard. Have never done a training block with workouts and speed work so this is kind of new to me. Previously I just worked on doing slow and long mileage. I think sub 36 would be kind of flying but maybe one day.

Prefontaine91 wrote:

Would be interesting to see some workouts like 4 x 2 k or 3 x 3 k or something.

I did 3 x 2 mile during week 8 of my training on the treadmill. First 2 miles were @ 6:15 second was @ 6:07 last rep was done @ 5:40. There was .25 miles active recovery (7:30 pace) between reps.

I run about 50-55 miles during my base

My easy runs about 8 min mile pace

Tempos are 6:15-6:40, depends on terrain, effort and length

Sometimes I run workouts like 2 x 4 km or 3 x 3 km at LT pace or slower

Last season I ran 37:00 and now I am in a better shape

Also I've done several hill sprints during base phase, soon I am going to sharpen that base with

different reps at around 5:20-5:50 per mile, sometimes faster.

Today I just ran 12 k at 6:26 per mile pace and that was tempo, after I did 4 x 200 hill sprints.

I am ready to run about 2:48-2:50 for 1 k and 9:40 for 3 k

So differents approaches

No way I start my "10 miler " and finish at 6:20 pace :D 7:30-7:40 at best.

In december I ran 10 miler at 6:47 and that was my fastest run during last 2 years :D

Your " 3 x 2 mile" workout seems nice you have to goal to break 1:20

Prefontaine91 wrote:

I run about 50-55 miles during my base

My easy runs about 8 min mile pace

Tempos are 6:15-6:40, depends on terrain, effort and length

Sometimes I run workouts like 2 x 4 km or 3 x 3 km at LT pace or slower

Last season I ran 37:00 and now I am in a better shape

Also I've done several hill sprints during base phase, soon I am going to sharpen that base with

different reps at around 5:20-5:50 per mile, sometimes faster.

Today I just ran 12 k at 6:26 per mile pace and that was tempo, after I did 4 x 200 hill sprints.

I am ready to run about 2:48-2:50 for 1 k and 9:40 for 3 k

So differents approaches

No way I start my "10 miler " and finish at 6:20 pace :D 7:30-7:40 at best.

In december I ran 10 miler at 6:47 and that was my fastest run during last 2 years :D

Your " 3 x 2 mile" workout seems nice you have to goal to break 1:20

Nice. 37 for 10k is a nice result. Sounds like you had a great race. I am excited to run hard in 2 weeks. Maybe I can get close to 37 minutes for my 10k. Ill be taking my foot off the gas and I am ready to see what I will be able to do. All of these runs and workouts are on tired legs so maybe I will surprise myself.