8th Graders at NXN

>>Do you think Nike should ban all teams who have continuous contact between coaches and athletes year-round to ensure that there's a level playing field?

It's a possibility, sure, if the advantage is thought to be great enough. They could tell teams one year ahead of time - if you want to compete at NXN, then you can't have any have year around contact. If you don't want to compete at NXN, go ahead.

They could also say, go ahead and have a 20 year old on your team during the season, just know they won't be able to compete at NXN.

They could also say, go ahead and have that 8th grader on your team. Just know this is counting towards their 4 years of eligibility.

Any championship should strive for a level playing, where no one competitor is allowed to do something another competitor is not, that is deemed significant. Whatever Nike thinks it can do to address it should be under consideration. Maybe certain things are impossible to adjust for. So be it. But they can try to do what they can.

The value of NXN is that the athletes get a unique and memorable experience. Probably only 5 people can name the last 5 team winners. The point is let the kids enjoy it. Those who want to restrict7/8 graders for the purpose of competitive winning are thinking in a warped way. They competed all year for their team and it is a good idea to let them do it in NXN. I could live with not having 7/8 graders compete at varsity level during the year but if they did then they should be ok running NXN

Seyta wrote:

Some states completely restrict contact between coaches and teams during all off-season, while others do not, which is by FAR a bigger disadvantage than not being able to use an 8th grader.

This is the problem. They are "using" 8th graders. I wouldn't go so far as to say abuse like some other posters, but I do think it ends up being bad for middle schoolers to be training with high school teams.

7th and 8th graders at NXN isn't an issue in my mind about one team having an advantage over another, it's a matter of whether it's in the best interest of the student-athlete. The answer to that question will depend heavily on the coach and the athlete involved.

Keep in mind there are plenty of 9-12th graders that are ruining their health through running too, but the risk seems to grow the earlier the intensive training starts.

Seyta wrote:

4 Years wrote:

I don't care if 7th or 8th graders compete.

I don't care what transfers compete.

etc.

But no one should be able to compete for more than 4 years.

Run as a 7th grader? Fine, but even one race for your team means you are using a year of eligibility.

4 years to compete. Where and when is your choice.

This is still a disadvantage to schools that are less than 4 years, but they will be at less of a disadvantage.

You want to punish middle schoolers and high schoolers for being good at running?

Because that's effectively what this proposal is.

What? Punish? I can't even make sense of that word in this context to respond to it. But if you can make a clearer statement I will try to respond. I fully understand some kids in a VERY rare circumstance may be denied an entry into a NXN for a 5th time, but most kids are already denied that opportunity. So they aren't being denied anything that another runner is allowed. I don't think the word "punish" applies in that situation.

But you don't care if transfers compete? All of the good kids from a state would transfer for a day of NXN allowed it.

Transfer king wrote:

But you don't care if transfers compete? All of the good kids from a state would transfer for a day of NXN allowed it.

If you are addressing that question to me, I think my position is pretty clear. When trying to make a level playing field anything can be considered. If transfers are an issue, nxn could say you can't compete for 2 different schools in consecutive years, or something else. I don't know enough about the issues of transfers to have an opinion.

Most of the national class teams have transfers but don't have JH scorers.

NXN ruler wrote:

Most of the national class teams have transfers but don't have JH scorers.

OK, but every school in the nation has transfers, just maybe not significant athletic transfers. Do some states limit the number of transfers in sports, but others don't? All of what I know about the transfer issues in NXN comes from the Loudoun Valley threads, which seems to be concerned with the number of transfers, So I would ask:

Do the majority of coaches feel there is a problem with transfers that affects NXN that needs to be addressed?

If so, the only solution I can think of is to limit the number of transfers that can be on a NXN team. That would be a hard spin though. Does any high school sport in any state restrict transfers? Most states restrict middle schoolers, so NXN would have something to work with there, but restricting transfers may not be the same. But if it is a significant problem, the topic should be considered.

Full disclosure, I was a transfer, but it was because my family moved and I hadn't thought about running as a sport yet.

Even though I loved running and trained as hard as anyone on the team for 3 years, I never made varsity, and I never even broke 5:15 in the mile. I was just naturally, God-given slow. I didn't break 70 in the quarter mile until after high school, when I trained to increase my "speed". There is no point to this story, other than LOTS of kids transfer in high school for various reasons, so putting restrictions on it won't be easy.

billybob22 wrote:

Yes, it is the best HIGH SCHOOL team in the nation. That is what the majority of people want, considering only a few people get to use 7/8. This should be a 9-12 only meet. Using younger than that is harmful, abusive, and unfair.

I don't think that is what the majority of the people want. There is no evidence that anybody wants that except for a few whiny people who can't figure out how to compete with 7th and 8th graders.

In any case, it isn't what NIKE's vision has ever been for the meet. Nike's vision of the meet is to match up the best schools in the nation as they competed that nation.

Maybe footlocker would be a better fit for you? They don't allow anybody younger than 9th grade.

hereinlies the problem wrote:

This is the problem. They are "using" 8th graders. I wouldn't go so far as to say abuse like some other posters, but I do think it ends up being bad for middle schoolers to be training with high school teams.

7th and 8th graders at NXN isn't an issue in my mind about one team having an advantage over another, it's a matter of whether it's in the best interest of the student-athlete. The answer to that question will depend heavily on the coach and the athlete involved.

Do you have any evidence at all to support this position? Any at all?

evidence please wrote:

hereinlies the problem wrote:

This is the problem. They are "using" 8th graders. I wouldn't go so far as to say abuse like some other posters, but I do think it ends up being bad for middle schoolers to be training with high school teams.

7th and 8th graders at NXN isn't an issue in my mind about one team having an advantage over another, it's a matter of whether it's in the best interest of the student-athlete. The answer to that question will depend heavily on the coach and the athlete involved.

Do you have any evidence at all to support this position? Any at all?

All evidence will be anecdotal due to the fact no scientific studies are going to be done on such a thing. For me personally, all the age groupers I’ve coached have peaked in high school. The boys tend to peak around sophomore to junior year and then give up because they aren’t winning like they used to in junior high and can see by junior year they will never be the best again. The girls have ALL peaked their freshmen year and then as they mature and plateau they lose their motivation and then begin to go downhill. Most quit before their senior year and I don’t blame them as they are mentally fried.

anecdotally all I see is a bunch of teams who can't figure out how to beat the NY girls at NXN every year. Right after the race they get all up in arms about the "unfairness" of expecting them to compete and they get protective about the health of the girls on the other coast.

I never see these people complaining about Louisiana, South Carolina, or any of the other states that allow middle school students to compete in high school sports.

Judge the true motivation for yourself.

evidence please wrote:

anecdotally all I see is a bunch of teams who can't figure out how to beat the NY girls at NXN every year. Right after the race they get all up in arms about the "unfairness" of expecting them to compete and they get protective about the health of the girls on the other coast.

I never see these people complaining about Louisiana, South Carolina, or any of the other states that allow middle school students to compete in high school sports.

Judge the true motivation for yourself.

I think the gist of it is that the middle schoolers in those other states must not be training super hard since they aren’t an impact on the national stage. Having spoken with a few (3) FM graduates the consensus is that the program is extremely serious and at least those I talked to say they felt pretty fried by the time they graduated. Not sure a program like GO is any different but at least they don’t have girls training like that for 6 years.

that in no way at all suggests to me that there is any harm to those students.

jealous bitches wrote:

go ny wrote:

So sorry to see the other states jealous of NY again muahahahaha

They are jealous of Louisiana and South Carolina, who are also able to use middle schoolers (obviously the secret of success)

And Minnesota and Florida

real fax wrote:

For the record Saratoga would still have won easily without its two 8th graders.

The losers need to find a better excuse.

8th graders are pushing the high schoolers on their team to do better.

Some high schoolers don’t want to lose to 8th and 9th graders on their team.

8th graders also add depth to team, making it more difficult to crack the top 7, which motivates people on the cusp between varsity and JV to do better.