10k- 39:34; 1/2 M- 1:35:19... how can I break 3?

screwed for marathon? wrote:

Context is king wrote:

When did you run your last half? You should be able to do about a 1:26 based off of that 10k.

Right? Effort was made in both races, I just can't believe I can do 6:20 miles for 6 miles but can only manage 7:15 miles for 13?

The 1/2 M race was exactly 4 weeks prior to Thanksgiving. Think I will rip off some v02 workouts this week and race an 8k or 3k this saturday. Tempos and long runs all December. Another half marathon early january before starting the taper towards early feb marathon.

You use the expression “rip off” too much. This is why you’re slow

See username

Get faster! wrote:

How I would go about breaking 3 if I were you:

I’d put that goal off entirely for now and reshift my focus, speed matters and it looks like you are limited. Looking at your 10k and half marathon I assume you are running around 2:30/5:30/19:00 for an all out 800m/mile/5k, that isn’t enough speed to break 3 in my opinion. Keep most of your base but focus on your middle distance conditioning and get faster, bring those times down to 2:12-2:15/4:55-5:05 and then you are in a great place to bring your 10k down to around 37 minutes which is probably the minimum speed requirement to achieve sub 3 for most people.

You didn't read. He's recently run 4:52 for the mile. Speed is not his limiting factor. Not by a long shot.

elviejo wrote:

With a 4:52 mile, 39:34 10K and 1:35:19 this guys endurance is very much lacking. If he was an endurance trained runner I'd say he might get sub-3 with 1:26 or 1:27 HM but this guy's gonna need 1:24 or 1:25 at most in the half to break 3. Doubt seriously that can change much in 2 months but not [italics]impossible.[/italics]

but not impossible.... So you're saying there's a chance. My marathon is Feb. 2 ... that give me 2 months: 4-6 weeks of hard tempos and long runs then a 2 week taper.

Real question is what would be better focus for Dec 1 - January 15:

1.) avg 75 mpw at easy paces (7:30-8:30). 3 workouts: 40 min tempo@ goal M pace; 8k of intervals @10k current; 18-22 mile long run @ easy paces.

or

2.) avg 50 mpw at easy paces. 2 workouts: 40 min tempo @goal 1/2 M pace; 16 mile long run @up-tempo 7:15 -> 6:35.

Number 2. I don't think you're body is ready for 75 mpw. I mean, it might be, but it's risky. Especially on 3 workouts a week.

So do number 2 consistently. Maybe vary the long run. 16 miles at around MP all the time is gong to be rough. Hit 18-20 easy some weeks. Other weeks do 18-20 with the first 10 miles easy, the latter portion progress down to whatever is comfortably hard and a possible MP.

You can also alternate workout one, too. Mix in some tempo fartleks where you do 3 mins harder and 1 minute easy. Or do 3 x 15 minutes with the first set around MP and work to make each set a little faster.

classic LR newbie: I have this arbitrary goal not based on anything other than it sounds cool. Is it unrealistic?

LR forum: Yes.

classic LR newbie: But if I like work really hard can I do it in under two months?

LR forum: Go for something more in your range and don't risk getting hurt. Be patient and you'll have long-term success.

classic LR newbie: You don't know what you're talking about! I know way better than you guys with decades of experience and am going to do it my way!

Two months later...

classic LR newbie: OK, so I totally bonked and ran 3:20. I probably could have done 3:10-3:15 if I hadn't gone out so hard.

remember you asked for advice wrote:

Two months later...

classic LR newbie: OK, so I totally bonked and ran 3:20. I probably could have done 3:10-3:15 if I hadn't gone out so hard.

I look forward to revisiting this in 2 months. Thanks for the advice!

stil_kannonier wrote:

remember you asked for advice wrote:

Two months later...

classic LR newbie: OK, so I totally bonked and ran 3:20. I probably could have done 3:10-3:15 if I hadn't gone out so hard.

I look forward to revisiting this in 2 months. Thanks for the advice!

To be clear, I wish you well and hope you have a great race and am trying to stop you from sabotaging it. You haven't ever run a sub-1:30 half and are hoping you doing two of those back-to-back, which is quite the undertaking.

Post your training here and keep this thread going through the race. I'm interested to see how it goes.

screwed for marathon? wrote:

If I can run 250 miles in December without getting injured I think I can break 3. It just seems silly to no have sub 3 capability when I've got a couple day old 39:34 10k pr and a 4:52 mile pr 3 months ago.

Except 39:34 isn't even indicative of a sub 3hr marathon. Combine that with the 135 half.. get a coach, train for a year, then re evaluate based on your half time a year from now.

You run a barely decent 10k, a poor HM and now want to jump to the marathon?

Why don't you try to improve in short distances first?

Sorry but you aren't gonna make it to sub 3 this cycle. You might be able to pull off 3:10 but I'd expect more like 3:15-3:20.

I just missed 3:00 by about a minute after running a hillly HM in 1:24 and getting my 5k down to 17:00

For most of us,

screwed for marathon? wrote:

Basically should I just do tempo runs and easy long runs til marathon in february?

With eight weeks to go, I actually like your chances. I'd just do a couple progression runs during the week, and a long run on the weekend. Easy runs or cross-training the other days.

Obviously, with a recent 4:50 mile, you have the talent, but the slowish 10K and abysmal half marathon show a huge need for endurance training.

Make one of the progressions 12-14 miles. Start easy, increase to smooth and comfortably challenging for most of the run, hammer the last three or four miles. Run by feel, but you should hit something like 6:20 or better for the final mile.

The progressions provide both endurance and speed work. And they're very approachable, mentally, because you start very easy, and just run by feel. As you hammer the last few miles, you're running for home, knowing when you finish, you're done for the day.

Your weekend long run is THE KEY to making the sub-3 happen. It should be at least 18 miles, even if you need to walk some of it the first couple times. Don't worry about pace. After a couple weeks, increase the distance to 20. Do one 23-miler a month before the marathon -- walk some if you need to.

This is my basic marathon approach, and I've run dozens of them. Many with less than eight weeks training, total, after months-long layoffs. I've always averaged under 50 miles per week, but I was sure to do the long runs, even if I needed to walk some of the distance.

I ran 2:4x as a youth, 2:5x in my 40s, 3:0x at near 60. With "better" training, could I have run faster? Undoubtedly. But for modest goals like sub-3, my low-key approach works fine, especially with basic talent like yours. By comparison, my best mile as youth was only 4:45; 5:04 in my 40s; 5:37 at age 59.

"40 min tempo @goal 1/2 M pace"

What's your goal half? Because if it's a huge jump from a 1:35 then that ain't a tempo run. Tempo runs are based off of current fitness or as some would say "date pace." And once you go faster than the threshold in a tempo run, you've defeated the purpose of the run.

Based off your half time, your tempos would be around 7:00 pace.

Also 40 min tempo could be too much for you, now. I would start around 20 minutes and slowly build up to 40 minutes. Maybe do 2 x 3 miles @ tempo as one of the last tempo workouts.

I completely agree that the long run is the key workout of the week. But if this person has to walk in those runs, then they ain't breaking 3.

Since this is their first marathon I would suggest getting the long runs in at an easy pace. I don't think they have the experience to be able to do workouts within the long run (ex. 2 x 8 miles at marathon pace).

ease it up wrote:

"40 min tempo @goal 1/2 M pace"

What's your goal half? Because if it's a huge jump from a 1:35 then that ain't a tempo run. Tempo runs are based off of current fitness or as some would say "date pace." And once you go faster than the threshold in a tempo run, you've defeated the purpose of the run.

Based off your half time, your tempos would be around 7:00 pace.

When I looked up Daniels vdot Chart for 2:59:XX Marathon, it listed a 1:25:40 1/2M equivalent. So I figured 40 minutes or 6 miles at goal equivalent 1/2M pace would be a good marathon workout; with a 3 mile w/u and 5 mile c/d.

stil_kannonier wrote:

ease it up wrote:

"40 min tempo @goal 1/2 M pace"

What's your goal half? Because if it's a huge jump from a 1:35 then that ain't a tempo run. Tempo runs are based off of current fitness or as some would say "date pace." And once you go faster than the threshold in a tempo run, you've defeated the purpose of the run.

Based off your half time, your tempos would be around 7:00 pace.

When I looked up Daniels vdot Chart for 2:59:XX Marathon, it listed a 1:25:40 1/2M equivalent. So I figured 40 minutes or 6 miles at goal equivalent 1/2M pace would be a good marathon workout; with a 3 mile w/u and 5 mile c/d.

No one is saying 6 miles/40 mins at half marathon pace isn't a good workout. It is. It's hard, too.

We're saying you trying to do it at 1:25 pace is at best over ambitious, at worst totally nuts. You do realize how close that pace is to your 10k pr, right? It's just a few seconds per mile slower. It's actually faster than the 5th mile you ran in the race.

There are lots of good suggestions in this thread. The one I'll reiterate is to not get hung up on paces and times right now. Just run. Run more miles. Most of them easy. Sometimes try to find a tempo feel. But don't run staring at your watch.

My first marathon was a 2:44 many years ago when I was a West Point cadet. The three workouts which I tried to complete every week were (a) a long run of between 90 minutes and 2:30 hours at about 1 minute/mile slower than target marathon race pace (b) repeat 5 x 1 mile at a 5 minute/mile pace or slightly faster, and (c) a harder tempo run with a few miles warm-up with the tempo part of the run at target race pace. The other workout days were typically between 4 and 6 miles at a pace slow enough to provide some recovery. My total weekly mileage was only about 60 miles/week and I was able to get down to 2:33 in Boston in 1983 (this was the race where Joan Benoit broke the world record and I think I finished in about 400th place which shows you just how competitive this race was. You did not provide much in the way of detail on your current training but you are certainly in the ballpark in terms of talent for a 3 hour marathon. Breaking 3 hours requires that you run for a very long time at just under 7 minute/mile pace. I tried to break 3 hours when I turned 40 in 2000 but I could only get to about 3:07. Now I'm about six months away from turning 60 and I'm trying to run somewhere between 3:30 and 3:45 which would be considered reasonably good for an old geezer

It does seem like someone who can run a 6:20 pace for a 10K "should" be able to run maybe 6:40 to 6:50 per mile for the half marathon. If your current training does not include repeat intervals, tempo workouts, and long runs I would consider including these types of workouts every week if you can handle the workload. Repeat intervals will improve your max VO2 and drop your resting heart rate and it only takes 2 or 3 workouts for you to see an impact. Tempo runs will make you more efficient at speed and work the muscles required to make you move faster. Long runs help teach your body to efficiently burn fat and get you used to being on your feet for a long time.

the vdot chart is based on where your fitness is currently, not where you want to be however far into the future that is.

screwed for marathon? wrote:

Context is king wrote:

When did you run your last half? You should be able to do about a 1:26 based off of that 10k.

Right? Effort was made in both races, I just can't believe I can do 6:20 miles for 6 miles but can only manage 7:15 miles for 13?

The 1/2 M race was exactly 4 weeks prior to Thanksgiving. Think I will rip off some v02 workouts this week and race an 8k or 3k this saturday. Tempos and long runs all December. Another half marathon early january before starting the taper towards early feb marathon.

In what way, shape or form is a 3k going to help towards your goal of running a marathon? Why would you run a race that requires foot speed when you're trying to build endurance?

It sounds like you either (1.) race too much, (2.) race the wrong distances, (3.) need to re-adjust your goal, (4.) need more time on over-distance training.

3:15 would be a more reasonable goal. It sounds as if you don't have much time to train before it. 50+ miles a week, longer uptempo runs, longer intervals, EASY on easy days, and a Saturday long run of 1:30-40 should get you to 3:15. You don't need to be racing before a marathon.