Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 12/1

TL, do you think it is runners knee? My knees were bad before I started treadmilling a lot a couple of years ago. They got way worse from the treadmill I think. I didn't have any pain running on them, afterwards was a different story.

I think treadmills are great but they can also be bad. A person's stride changes a little on them which could lead to some issues. Also at least for me I think the surface is way to consistent. Which leads to always landing the same. Both can lead to overuse injuries.

Becareful if it's runners knee. I tried everything to get rid of my issues and not much has helped. The thing that has helped them the most is running in grass more often. Grass is probably the exact opposite of a treadmill when landing. Not one step is the same.

JQ - Thanks very much. I was looking forward to running it, too...was excited about it from the get-go...a flat course at the beach. But as much as I tried, it was not to be. The challenge now will be getting ready for Shamrock. It seems far out (March) but it is only three months away. Need to heal up soon.

GNR1 wrote:

DietBacon, Bruin, BHV, Stones’, when and where will the official LRC post race refueling station be?

Nearest bar? Whatever that is?

Good luck to everyone this weekend at CIM or wherever you may be racing. I've got a few locals I will be tracking and it will be nice to add a few more to the list.

I want to bounce a marathon training question of y'all this morning. My weekly schedule and constraints (mainly, an infant) allow me time for: weekend long run, mid-week MLR (90-100 mins on Tue or Thr), and otherwise doubles in 45 min windows. My midweek MLR generally has some sort of structure, this week I did 5x2mi at current MP with 400m jog. In the future I see the MLR evolving toward some HM-pace work. Do I need to try and add another day with a little quality during the week? Eg, do my MLR Tuesday, then Thursday AM 20 min warmup, 20 min fartlek and Thursday PM 15 min warmup 30 min fartlek.

sans-culottes wrote:

I want to bounce a marathon training question of y'all this morning. My weekly schedule and constraints (mainly, an infant) allow me time for: weekend long run, mid-week MLR (90-100 mins on Tue or Thr), and otherwise doubles in 45 min windows.

Meh! Infants! Who needs them anyway, they just screw up our training schedules!!!

Well, I'll speak from my experience as having had made it through 2 infants, and currently on my 3rd. I'm not going to necessarily comment on the marathon training (I have no marathon experience) but I can comment on my schedule right now and how I tend to balance things.

Marathon training is a bit harder just due to the mileage needs (assuming your pushing 80-90+ miles at peak) and therefore the time you have to devote. I have noticed that most folks tend to have at least SOME weeks with two workouts and a longer run. Check out Stone's training for a perfect and succinct look at that (first post of this week). He highlights his workouts for each week in his block (which by the way, Stone, THANK YOU. This is an awesome reference). Some weeks there are two workouts and long. Sometimes it's incorporated into the long with some MP in there. Sometimes there is only one.

I typically do two workout days a week. I double on Tuesdays (most of the time) with a workout in the evening after infant is in bed. I do have a bit of help in a wife and my mother who comes over to handle the other two hooligans while I'm out. On Thursday or Friday, I tend to do my tempo work by putting into a Med/Long day (for me) of about 10 miles. Usually I'll include 4-6 miles of threshold work in that 10, with some warm up and cool down. Then Sundays, long run. If I'm trying to get more miles, like you, I have blocks of 45 mins in the AM before kids are up, and 45 mins in the PM after kids are asleep. I jam extra miles into those points in time.

It's a balancing act. I do find myself overly fatigued sometimes and then I just try and take it easy. Other times I feel spectacular that I've found a way to juggle it all and maintain a good marriage, a good job, happy kids, running, and all of life's other pleasures (BEER!)

sans-culottes wrote:

I want to bounce a marathon training question of y'all this morning. My weekly schedule and constraints (mainly, an infant) allow me time for: weekend long run, mid-week MLR (90-100 mins on Tue or Thr), and otherwise doubles in 45 min windows. My midweek MLR generally has some sort of structure, this week I did 5x2mi at current MP with 400m jog. In the future I see the MLR evolving toward some HM-pace work. Do I need to try and add another day with a little quality during the week? Eg, do my MLR Tuesday, then Thursday AM 20 min warmup, 20 min fartlek and Thursday PM 15 min warmup 30 min fartlek.

I also struggle with this issue (2 vs 3 quality days per week). I find that I can handle 3 at lower mileages but when my volume gets high it’s too much and I’ll just plan on 2. If I feel good or have a good group maybe I’ll do something light on Thursday like a fartlek or progression run as the third “workout” but this is not something I do every week. Just if I’m feeling it. I would def not recommend 2 additional workouts on Thursday.

Most important is that you listen to your body though and if you don’t feel it, pull the plug. Also keep in mind that as we get older we need more time to recover. I think the young bucks can get away with more quality days than us geezers.

One final note: I’d definitely try to get your 2 mile repeats closer to HMP. You may only be able to do 3 or 4, but it will definitely be more taxing (and effective IMO) than 5x2 at MP.

Pappy wrote:

TL, do you think it is runners knee? My knees were bad before I started treadmilling a lot a couple of years ago. They got way worse from the treadmill I think. I didn't have any pain running on them, afterwards was a different story.

I think treadmills are great but they can also be bad. A person's stride changes a little on them which could lead to some issues. Also at least for me I think the surface is way to consistent. Which leads to always landing the same. Both can lead to overuse injuries.

Becareful if it's runners knee. I tried everything to get rid of my issues and not much has helped. The thing that has helped them the most is running in grass more often. Grass is probably the exact opposite of a treadmill when landing. Not one step is the same.

It could be, definitely. Of note is I did less treadmill-ing actually in this buildup than in the past. Have been off the thing a fair bit. Either way, I'll tweak more often with the inclines and try to run less on it as a precaution when I come back. I have a jogging thing tomorrow, but that will be extent of my running for a little bit. Hopefully can shake it, but I maybe needed more of a proper break post-Marathon than I budgeted out and taxed my knee too much. Either way no real pressure to get to A shape any time soon. Yes, do have a race marked in February but that was always for fun anyhow. I'm just hoping to be able to run without worrying about it when I come back. It's the little things.

Just chiming in - I shifted to two quality days this past cycle (generally Wednesday and Saturday), and I felt it worked really well and helped me reach a new level of fitness. So big +1 to angryjohnny's comment. When not in the depths of marathon training, I'll still go with two workouts a week plus a weekend long run, but at those times, the long run really isn't all that intense, so....

Also agree that I don't see the point in 5x2 at MP. I think those are so short that it's impossible not to end up running them at somewhere between HMP and MP. Better just to commit to HMP, and maybe do less repeats.

Places to drink in Sacramento - the last two times I did CIM, we hangout at Mayahuel after (right by the Hyatt Regency)

Thanks for the feedback, definitely gonna look back at Stone's logs. I'm lucky that I'm able to run during my lunch break because I'm a horrible morning runner and I'd have to be out the door at 515 which is a non-starter for me. Also, I have a wife who is a former college runner so she is super understanding. Have you done any stroller running on your easy days? I have a rail trail a mile from the house that is conducive to stroller-pushing but haven't done more than 5 miles 2 or 3 times with the stroller. Don't love having my hands so occupied while running.

I'm still on the low end of my buildup (expect 65 this week, going up to 80-85) so that's probably why I'm feeling fresh enough to want a 3rd quality day of the week. I think I'll keep the option of a light fartlek (did a Mona this week) I can easily roll into if I'm feeling good.

For the 2x5mi, it was just a case of first workout of the entire buildup, my partner suggested it and it was extremely easy as it should be. I'm 16 weeks out from the race and this is my 4th week of training. Planning on 3-4 more weeks of volume building before about 10 weeks of marathon block before the taper.

The Stones are currently in Walnut Creek, CA. Late flight last night, but it was nice to wake up and be here. Overcast, foggy, looks like tomorrow is gonna be the “bad” weather day, with more pronounced winds 20mph+ and periods of heavier rain. I’m not sure what some people in other threads are whining about, Sunday morning is a race day forecast I would take in a heartbeat. 53-54F, overcast, light steady rain, 7-10mph winds. Yeah, as a bigger guy, I would like a bit cooler temps, but the cloud cover, wind, and rain offset a few degrees. The sun is usually my biggest nemesis, so I’m loving these forecasted conditions.

To touch on a few topics. Singles versus doubles. There are many successful examples of runners I know and coach who do one (singles all the time) or the other (doubles all the time, with maybe a single on long run day) or a hybrid version (ala AJ, 3-4 days of singles and 3-4 days of doubles). To me the most important parts of the formula are stress and recovery and intensity.

Like Smoove, I have fallen into favor with singles at my age. I like doing 4 to 5 double digit runs a week, and having the 24 hours of recovery in between. Being able to regularly treat a 10+ mile run as “easy” or “recovery” is good medicine for the marathoner in training.

In my younger days, and for many athletes I coach who might have time constraints, dividing 10 miles as 6 / 4 or 12 miles as 7 / 5 made more sense. There is the bonus of triggering metabolic mechanisms by running more frequently, by training your body to develop a more constant cumulative fatigue, but there is also the extra laundry, extra showering, and less continuous time on your feet than singles.

Which, I think, is why you’ll see quite a few regular successful posters on our thread (slo, AJ, Sub 6:00 immediately come to mind) settle into more of a hybrid approach as they kind of get the best of both worlds.

I think no matter which of the three options a runner personally decides works best for him or her, that the intensity (and recovery) within that schedule will play as much of a part of success as the schedule itself.

sans - To answer your question a bit more specifically...

I like what you have decided on based on what’s realistic for you with work/family/etc. I would guide you to 4-5 days of 30-45 minute doubles with two devoted quality longer days. In fact, I love your 5 x 2 mile workout at this point in your training cycle. I think for most runners, 10-12 miles of total MP volume is a comfortable maxing out point in training. What I would expect you to do as you approach race day is to extend the periods of duration that you are running MP, so a series might look like:

5 x 2 miles

3 x 3 miles

7 miles

4 x 2.5 miles

8 miles

2 x 5 miles

9 miles

2 x 6 miles

10 miles

Etc. You could keep that as one of your weekly workouts and rotate it as part of your midweek workout or embed it in your long run.

Like AJ and darkwave alluded to you, you will also want to incorporate some HMP or T running in your workout rotation. Maybe start with a cruise interval type session (6 x 1 mile) and build from there:

3 miles

4 x 1.5 miles

4 miles

3 x 2 miles

5 miles

2 x 3 miles

3 miles / 1 mile / 3 miles

Again the iterations are innumerable.

And to kind of tie everything together about singles v doubles, stress v recovery, younger runners v masters, two workouts v three workouts...

I present to you the training of Ray Bentley. He was a successful masters runner who in his forties and fifties ran numerous marathons in the 2:40-2:45 range off of a simple, repeatable weekly schedule. He came to this schedule after suffering a few stress fractures earlier in his career from not giving the proper balance to the stress v recovery.

M - 10 miles at 8:30

T - 10 miles at 8:30

W - 13 miles total. 8-13 miles at MP based on how he was feeling and how close he was to race day.

Th - 10 miles at 8:30

F - 10 miles at 8:30

Sa - 20 miles at 7:00-7:15

Su - Rest or 10 miles at 8:30.

73-83 miles a week. Not high in intensity, but he said the slow singles built his strength. Running an honest long run and a weekly pace workout dialed him in.

Not saying this is the best way to train, or that the way I train or anyone else trains is the best way to train, but that when you find the right stress and recovery, you find the right balance, and you are consistent over time, you can make your schedule work for your goals.

The Stone Cutter wrote:

The Stones are currently in Walnut Creek, CA. Late flight last night, but it was nice to wake up and be here. Overcast, foggy, looks like tomorrow is gonna be the “bad” weather day, with more pronounced winds 20mph+ and periods of heavier rain. I’m not sure what some people in other threads are whining about, Sunday morning is a race day forecast I would take in a heartbeat. 53-54F, overcast, light steady rain, 7-10mph winds. Yeah, as a bigger guy, I would like a bit cooler temps, but the cloud cover, wind, and rain offset a few degrees. The sun is usually my biggest nemesis, so I’m loving these forecasted conditions.

FWIW, those were pretty much the same conditions we had at Broad Street Run this year (rain was a bit heavier than "light steady") and a lot of people ran really fast that morning. So I agree, this is not a fatal forecast.

Regarding singles versus doubles. I'm curious what others' opinions are on a "close double" like what I sometimes do. Example: run 8 miles, finishing up at a yoga studio or gym, then jump into a yoga class (or start lifting). Post yoga/lift, head on back out for 4 more miles. About 5 minutes gap between each run and the yoga class.

I do this honestly because it's the most efficient way for me to get miles in, AND get my yoga or lifting in, AND only have to shower once a day. Plus, I think there's a lot of benefit to doing yoga on tired legs - I practice maintaining body control/good form when I'm tired.

I've always wondered if in someway it combines both the physiological benefits of the longer single run (i.e. continuous activity for an extended time) and the physiological benefits of the double (that hormone release that you get from the start of each run). Of course, it could also be that I'm actually getting neither of those benefits.

I do think that running 8 miles, doing something else, and then running 4 miles is different mentally from running 12 miles straight.

Congratulate me for surviving my first day of PT. It went well and I have a good therapist. She says I have a hamstring strain, but not a bad one. Will pick up with running sometime next week.

Stone - Sounds like the weather will be good for you. I like cloudy skies, too. Rock it, my friend...a bibbed flyer all the way.

Awesome to hear OR! Let's hope they work some more magic going forward!

@darkwave Sounds like it would at the very least still have the same hormone release benefits, interested to see what others say!

I've never had so many people in a race tracker before -- SO EXCITED! Stoked for the RRTT crew to bring it home!

GOOD LUCK to all the CIM runners this weekend. I can't wait to hear your good stories from the race.

.......

Continuing the interesting outcomes from my two earlier races this fall .... I received the personalized age group award from the Des Moines half today, a pint glass with name, age group place, and finish time etched on it. Well .... it got my name right, but that's all. I was not 1st in 40-44 and neither did I run 1:26!! I feel bad for the actual 1st place woman who ran 1:26, probably getting my 3rd place and 1:34:xx on her glass.

Good luck at CIM people! I wish you all good

weather, easy logistics, and fresh legs for the last 10k.

OR, good luck with PT. Besides, December is cold, dark, and a great time to not run anyway!

Singles vs doubles. am an advocate of long singles versus doubles. This is partly because you are what you train to be, and for marathons, getting your body used to longer and continuous running is better in my opinions. Of course, I’m one of the slowest runners on this thread so you are probably better listening to stone and the others. Good luck.

looking forward to some beastly performances from you all this weekend, starting with Napper tomorrow.

good running at Richmond and Philadelphia Runnergirl, Darkwave, Nice Guy and drcrusher.

Diet Bacon- hammering

AJ it’d be great if there were some timing chips and/or official results involved in these PR results?

tis a busy time of year with the holi-daze and I’m not as caught up on the thread as I’d like, but it’s great to see so many folks getting after it with great training.

FYI, my bib number for Memphis tomorrow is 14. Feeling good, just need a good night’s sleep.

Napper wrote:

FYI, my bib number for Memphis tomorrow is 14. Feeling good, just need a good night’s sleep.

Sleep well and then tear it up in the morning, Napper!