I know for a fact that Christensen was on one year of probation by CHSAA. It's okay to deal with reality.
I know for a fact that Christensen was on one year of probation by CHSAA. It's okay to deal with reality.
Well done providing well-known facts.
You don't know her but she's is likely principled. Weren't you the same guy betting on hypothetical situations?
Silver Creek was mentioned before I got into the discussion.
You also show that you don't care about kids ("poor, abused child"). That's just something to dismiss for a tough, not-wimpy guy like yourself (who calls people wimps still?).
Who's coaching year-round? Some coaches who coach in club and high school coach year-round. Some high school coaches make it work without a club. Who's making them the best they can be if they don't actually develop athletes? And when did athletes become "their" athletes and "my" athletes?
If an athlete runs for a club throughout the off-seasons, they likely spend more time with the club than with the school program. Many athletes joined that club years before they started high school. So how does that athlete "belong" to a high school coach?
I'm pleased we agree on not being a fan of CHSAA.
Chasssaaa wrote:
I don't know her, but likely Coach Riel is also principled and has high expectations
Bwahaha - that's the funniest thing I've read in this thread yet (both parts)
Keep saying it. It's true. It has to be true. It MUST BE TRUE!
Just because you and your cronies talk about it all the time when you think only your like-minded allies are around, it doesn't make it true.
"What are we gonna do about Niwot?"
"Let's start in on that LetsRun.com thread again!"
"Yeah, let's bring up the one about the probation again.
"That's a good one!"
"Oh, and the Silver Creek girl who transferred!"
"I LOVE that one! Let's not bring up the part about why a kid would leave in the middle of the school year. That doesn't help our case."
"How 'bout the middle school coach who talks to kids?!"
"Whoa, that's really bad. He shouldn't coach those kids. They don't need coaching."
"Did you hear that REAL Training is putting on a meet where their coaches coach high school kids?!"
"No way! I bet they don't want anyone to know that!"
"Well, I don't know how people would know where to race without them telling people."
"Right. Still, sounds bad!"
"It does. Put it on LetsRun!"
"Oh, and they should be in 5A. It's not fair."
Things we all agree on:
Affluent schools have an advantage over non-affluent schools.
Suburban schools have an advantage over both city and rural schools.
Outdoor recreation-based communities have an advantage over agricultural-based communities.
Schools with open enrollment have an advantage over schools without open enrollment.
Schools with robust offseason programs have an advantage over schools without.
Large schools have an advantage over small schools.
Schools that have fewer fall sport offerings have an advantage over schools that offer many fall sports.
Nearly all coaches care about their athletes as human beings first.
Coaches from the strongest programs sometimes mistakenly think coaches from not-as-strong programs are lazy.
Coaches from the not-as-strong programs sometimes mistakenly think coaches from the strongest programs are win-at-all-costs cheats.
And a summary of your cronies" responses/attitudes:
"We should abolish transfer rules!"
"I am an elitist!"
"My kid should be able to transfer any time if things don't go just right for them!"
"I shouldn't have to follow any rule I don't personally like, because it isn't quite right for me and my personal situation!"
"Can you believe anyone would actually insist that ethics are a fundamental aspect of leadership?"
"Put this on LetsRun!"
"Let's not talk about how the facts, it doesn't help our case."
You're here talking sh!t too, you buffoon.
Preach!
Great points, one and all.
No athlete should "belong" to the school they live next to as chsaaa is advocating. That out-of-touch, slave-owner mentality implies all coaches and programs are equally competent. There are plenty of coaches that don't have a clue. In high school I ran for four different coaches. Three were coaches at my high school (different coaches three of the four years), of which, none had much of a clue how to train distance runners. My club coach in high school was great (I was introduced to him by my older brother, who, like me, was a state champion). He knew his stuff and the school he coached for won multiple state championships in cross country and had multiple individual state champions on the track. As a result, my indoor track PRs [when I was running club (mostly on my own as he would write the workouts and I would follow them as he lived / taught / coached 30 miles away)] were better than my outdoor track PRs and my summer 5k times were better than my XC season times. Kids should be free to run wherever they please, and there should be no restrictions on recruiting / transferring. Besides track and XC are at their core individual sports.
Speaking of leadership, I'm not sure how this fits into the conversation about responsibility, education, athletics, and leadership:
Oh, there's Coach Mo! Representing his club team that he started before he started coaching at Niwot.
Buzzer Beet Ear wrote:
Speaking of leadership, I'm not sure how this fits into the conversation about responsibility, education, athletics, and leadership:
https://positivecoach.org/the-pca-blog/national-winners-announced-for-pcas-2020-double-goal-coach-award-presented-by-teamsnap/Oh, there's Coach Mo! Representing his club team that he started before he started coaching at Niwot.
Hahahaha! Any conflict of interest? Amy Manson, whose daughter he coached in his club, put him up for this award. Doh! No bias here!
Amy is the Regional Program Director for PCA.
justacoach wrote:
Things we all agree on:
Affluent schools have an advantage over non-affluent schools. - To an extent, but not always (especially on the track). Look at Lake County, Alamosa, Durango, Grand Junction Central, etc. There are lots of good programs in less affluent areas.
Suburban schools have an advantage over both city and rural schools. - XC, but not necessarily on the track.
Outdoor recreation-based communities have an advantage over agricultural-based communities. - Agreed, although Alamosa and other small towns produce some quality runners through the years. De la Cerda was a good runner and is a good coach.
Schools with open enrollment have an advantage over schools without open enrollment. - Open enrollment is good for kids and forces schools to make improvements to attract students.
Schools with robust offseason programs have an advantage over schools without. - As I said, if coaches are willing to put in the effort, they can build a strong program by coaching year round.
Large schools have an advantage over small schools. - Probability and statistics dictates this, although smaller charter schools with good academic programs have similar advantages. Look at TCA and Vanguard.
Schools that have fewer fall sport offerings have an advantage over schools that offer many fall sports. - Kids at those schools can still play sports for other schools in their district that offer the other sports, so I don't know that this is much of an advantage. My kid's school doesn't offer XC, but has soccer, and their soccer team is terrible. But the kids that run for different schools would likely win the district in XC if their school had a team.
Nearly all coaches care about their athletes as human beings first. - Depends on the coach. Some of the coaches on this thread feel like they care about glory more than their athletes since they want to own where they go.
Coaches from the strongest programs sometimes mistakenly think coaches from not-as-strong programs are lazy. - I could see why a coach who is accused of cheating because he takes the additional time and effort to run a club team would take umbrage with a coach who simply wants to own the kids from a certain geographical location and harvest the fruits of another coaches labor by asserting ownership of talent that another coach has developed.
Coaches from the not-as-strong programs sometimes mistakenly think coaches from the strongest programs are win-at-all-costs cheats.
- Typically these are individuals that don't put in the work that some of these club coaches put in during the off-season periods.
Chasssaaa wrote:
And a summary of your cronies" responses/attitudes:
"We should abolish transfer rules!" - Absolutely, they only harm kids.
"I am an elitist!" - No, but it is okay to want the best for your kid.
"My kid should be able to transfer any time if things don't go just right for them!" - If the coach is incompetent or a predator, the team is toxic, there are bullies at the school, there is a drug / alcohol problem, or the administration at the school is abhorrent, then absolutely. Evidently you feel that no matter how bad a coach is, school is, etc., a parent shouldn't be able to transfer their kid out of a toxic environment.
"I shouldn't have to follow any rule I don't personally like, because it isn't quite right for me and my personal situation!" - I don't think this is relevant to the issue of recruitment.
"Can you believe anyone would actually insist that ethics are a fundamental aspect of leadership?" - Pursuing one's self interest so long as it is not hurting others is never unethical.
"Put this on LetsRun!" - That's why we're here.
"Let's not talk about how the facts, it doesn't help our case." - What facts have you brought up. Mostly what you are doing is whining about kids pursuing their self interest.
You're here talking sh!t too, you buffoon.
- Accept the fact that people will have differences of opinion
CO Coach wrote:
Choice is King wrote:
In some ways, I think you made my case for me. If a kid wants the year-round training, then select a program that offers that. If that athlete is wanting to run Cross Country to get in shape for another sport, pick a program that isn't an all-year deal. Chose a program that fits the athlete. Don't penalize them if they try an intense program and want to transfer to a less intense team. Or the other way around applies too.
As a high school kid (many years ago) I ran road races with my dad but my real love was soccer. I ran XC, just killing time until soccer started. Then, I started winning races and realized I was barely average at soccer. I switched to a year-round running program after my sophomore year in high school and it was the best thing I ever did. Kids need to try various things and approaches to find their groove. The harsh transfer (sit out a year) rules and recruiting accusations do not help the athletes. It only helps, or in some cases hurts, track coaches and certain programs. If you are really in it for the kids, let them try various teams and approaches and who cares about the balance or imbalance of power for the programs.
I think many people here don't understand the structure of CHSAA or the overall politics behind these rules. CHSAA is made up of all of it's member schools, the majority of which are 1A-3A schools in rural towns. Even in 4A and 5A there are some geographically isolated schools that simply will never be able to take advantage of transfers, even if they created excellent programs. These schools want a level playing field or as close to it as they can get, and they resent being beaten by front range super teams that can recruit from huge population centers. And it's not just the coaches driving this but the parents and students at these rural schools, in many cases high school sports is all these communities have. Just look at 4A cross this year, what hope does a school like Durango (geographically isolated in the mountains) have against these Niwot teams when Niwot can pull kids from the greater Boulder/Longmont area, whether they were recruited or not? The transfer rules are the only tool CHSAA has to try to create some kind of fairness in all of this, it's not like there are undercover CHSAA agents posing as middle school parents. A high school coach would have to be pretty dumb to get caught recruiting in this state.
People also forget that the CHSAA Bylaws were largely created for football, CHSAA's focus is something like 80% football, 10% basketball and 10% everything else. You simply cannot mess with some of these smaller communities chances at a state football title, they will fight to the death for it.
That's a fair evaluation of CHSAA- that they focus on other sports. In football, having a defensive line that averages 300 lbs across the front face an offensive line that's averaging 180 lbs is a recipe for disaster! Parity in team sports like that has different implications.
Parity in XC or track is more about AD and Coach accolades.
Chasssaaa wrote:
Choice is King: You can't deal with facts, hence your sarcasm. You're a wimp. And easy to beat in any argument. You have no facts. Or principles. That is why you struggle with guys like me.
Cranny was coached by Jason Hartmann. Have a nice day. I don't know her, but likely Coach Riel is also principled and has high expectations. That poor, abused child! I'm sure they tried to get a hardship exemption lol. Merely by mentioning SC, you start to see what Niwot is up to. You can't handle facts. The second you realize that the people you like might be up to below-average behavior, you will start to see that it isn't JUST good coaching. it is also them bypassing rules that helps their program. If the coach is willing to do it. Some take what they get, work with their own athletes year-round, and make them the best they can be. Some do that, and also treat it like the Wild West, as Choice is King wants. He wants the rules "abolished." By the way, I am not at all a fan of CHSAA. All organizations have rules, that aren't in the interest of every individual athlete. They exist in the spirit of fair play. No different than salary caps or anything else.
Seriously, Chasssaaa- Welcome back to the conversation. You provide insights and entertainment to this thread and I appreciate it. (no sarcasm. I really appreciate your unvarnished opinions.) This why I like the Let's Run boards. You can hear what people really think. Not just what they think while they semi-politely talk to you at a meet. You get the real stuff here!
Sincerely,
Your below quarter wit, entitled, unprincipled, wimpy friend, Choice is King
I've lived in Colorado for about 4 years. I ran in HS and college and coached, all in other states. We had many of the similar issues in the states I have resided.
I have been trying to follow this debate to get a better understanding of Colorado HS track/XC. A great deal has been enlightening, both ways.
Currently I have just one, what I see as major, question: Did Niwot have a coach that was reprimanded by CHSAA in some way for recruiting? One side has said "absolutely" and the other side has said "if you didn't see it, it didn't happen".
Was a track/XC coach at Niwot sanctioned for breaking recruiting rules?
Um, typically people are nominated for these types of things by people connected to them. Parents, athletes, colleagues.
Are Amy and Mia (throw in the whole family, I suppose) unethical now as well?
There's another poorly respected bunch. (sarcasm alert)
I know one of Niwot's top freshmen boys went to Angevine middle (Centaurus feeder). And one of their top freshmen girls went to Altona middle (Silver Creek feeder). This is getting outrageous. Something needs to be done.
I think the outrage in this thread is a symptom of a much bigger problem in high school sports. Something stinks and the people complaining in this thread can smell it, but they are lashing out at the wrong issue. The issue is high school sports are being dominated by affluent communities. This is nothing new in sports like volleyball and soccer where affluent families have long sent their kids to expensive clubs and schools in those communities benefitted by having dominant teams in those sports. But then it started trickling into sports like football and basketball, sports where rural and inner city schools used to be competitive. And now that it's finally trickled down to cross country people on this board are suddenly outraged.
CHSAA and other state associations are hopelessly outgunned here, the economic imbalance combined with open enrollment in Colorado allows the haves to run roughshod over the have-nots. At the upper levels club sports, private trainers and coaches and summer training camps have won, a whole industry has cropped up as there's money to be made from these parents. You could ban the coaches at Valor and Niwot for life (if they even did anything wrong) and it won't change the landscape of high school cross country in Colorado for very long, the model has been proven. There isn't anything close to a level playing field in high school sports, there hasn't been for several decades now, and it goes way beyond a handful of middle schoolers deciding not to go to their district high school.
justacoach mentioned some similar points a couple of days ago, and I don't completely disagree with either of you. But open enrollment does skew many things, as those with less financial means CAN attend schools outside of their most-local school.
We should be following an entirely different funding model for public schools that is more equitable and (gasp) socialistic. If we deem education to be valuable, then we should strive to provide equitable funding and opportunities across all communities. This goes well beyond high school SPORTS.
Putting my teacher hat on now:
All that said, Niwot HS is often presented as a school fully populated by the children of white, wealthy families. That's pretty far from the truth.
I'd guess part of the issue is that Niwot (an unincorporated town) IS 86% white (Hispanic/Latino of any race is 5.1%), many of the homes in the area ARE quite expansive, and the median family income is $179,038. However, as of the last census, the "town" only had 4,306 residents. Hard to get the roughly 1200-student enrollment out of that.
On the other hand, neighboring Longmont's population was 98,711. Whites are listed at 83%, but the Hispanic or Latino population of any race is 24.6%. The median family income is $70,864.
Looking at the Niwot HS demographics and comparing them to Silver Creek HS (nearby and previously brought up as a school that loses out to Niwot HS regularly):
Stats from: schooldigger.com
Racial breakdown:
Niwot: White 60.2%, Hispanic 29%
Silver Creek: White 75.7%, Hispanic 13.1%
Free/discounted lunch:
Niwot: 25.3%
Silver Creek: 13.2%
Enrollment:
Niwot: 1,177
Silver Creek: 1,349
Niwot was 1st (girls) and 2nd (boys) at 4A State XC.
Silver Creek was 10th (girls), while their boys didn't qualify.
We split up sports by school size in CO, as it can be tough for smaller schools to compete with larger schools. But a look at select 5A schools in the area confuses things:
Monarch: 1,664 students, 76.6% White/10.6% Hispanic, 8.9% free/discounted lunch
Broomfield: 1,564 students, 71% White/19.8% Hispanic, 16% free/discounted lunch
Fairview: 2,131 students, 70.9% White/10.95% Hispanic, 10.2% free/discounted lunch
Boulder: 2,153 students, 66.3% White/23.2% Hispanic, 23.4% free/discounted lunch
Of this 5A bunch:
Fairview easily fared the best at the most recent State XC meet (5th boys/7th girls).
Boulder placed: 12th boys/13th girls
Monarch's girls were 16th. Their boys didn't qualify.
Broomfield's girls were 18th. Their boys didn't qualify.
There are plenty of factors to Niwot's success. Money doesn't play the role many people are thinking.
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Rest in Peace Adrian Lehmann - 2:11 Swiss marathoner. Dies of heart attack.
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year