Tinman: 1 hour per day for high school runners

SamH wrote:

Does this include Freshman and Sophomores? If so how would you progress this throughout high school?

I understand that your overall mileage will increase as the your pace gets faster but surely the overall training stress will not

The majority of freshman would NOT be able to handle the same workload that a junior/senior would (with 2-3 years of solid training under their belt).

That being said, I would imagine you could perhaps do something like the following:

Freshman - 30-40 min/day + 50 min LR

Sophomores - 40-50 min/day + 60-70 LR

Juniors - 50-60 min/day + 75-85 LR

Seniors - 60 min/day + 90 min LR

The training stress/workload would still be increasing as you progress throughout the years because you would be increasing your pace.

Trashman wrote:

SamH wrote:

Does this include Freshman and Sophomores? If so how would you progress this throughout high school?

I understand that your overall mileage will increase as the your pace gets faster but surely the overall training stress will not

The majority of freshman would NOT be able to handle the same workload that a junior/senior would (with 2-3 years of solid training under their belt).

That being said, I would imagine you could perhaps do something like the following:

Freshman - 30-40 min/day + 50 min LR

Sophomores - 40-50 min/day + 60-70 LR

Juniors - 50-60 min/day + 75-85 LR

Seniors - 60 min/day + 90 min LR

The training stress/workload would still be increasing as you progress throughout the years because you would be increasing your pace.

I have been running and training for 4 years and am the equivalent of a freshman in high school in the UK. However my training has only been consistent for a year or so , as I played soccer as well before that.

As I am probably more experienced than most American runners when they come into high school, would it be ok for me to maybe train at each level a year early?

At the minute I only training 6 days a week, is it necessary for me to run everyday?

He suggests starting new runners at 30 minutes, with walking breaks, if necessary. But he says that even new runners can get up to an hour/day within two months or so. So consider an average freshman who starts at 20:00 5K, and then runs PRs each year like this (with rounding):

9th: 19:00, 36 mpw on 6 days, avg 6 miles/day @ 10 minutes/mile ---> 60 minutes

10th: 17:30, 45 mpw on 7 days, avg 6.5 miles/day @ 9 minutes/mile ---> 60 minutes

11th: 16:50, 50 mpw on 7 days, avg 7.5 miles/day @ 8:30 minutes/mile ---> 65 minutes

12th: 16:30, 55 mpw on 7 days, avg 8 miles/day @ 8 minutes/mile ---> 65 minutes

So that's roughly an hour to 65 minutes of running on average. Keep in mind, that Schwartz wants kids running no faster than 5K pace + 2 minutes/mile most of the time, and is fine with 5K pace + 3 or 4 minutes/mile. If the math doesn't add up for your guys, it is probably because they are running faster than he has in mind when he sets the 60-minute target.

60 for seniors probably means running for 60 minute straight.

60 minutes for a freshman may mean 15 on / 5 off x 3 at first.

Keep the ball rolling

webby wrote:

He suggests starting new runners at 30 minutes, with walking breaks, if necessary. But he says that even new runners can get up to an hour/day within two months or so.

Horrible advice. Get freshman up to 60’ a day and have them still running that same amount as seniors? Boys will probably still improve year to year but there’s almost no chance the majority of girls would. Most would peak as sophomores.

I think he says "minimum." At any rate, you should take it up with Schwartz.

I would progress the time per day to 60 in a 5 to 9 week period for a freshman. Maybe even faster. It would really depend on their athletic history and physical maturity.

90% of kids can probably get up to 60 minutes a day faster than 9 weeks without a risk. Just keep the intensity really low and work intensity in slowly.

I don’t think Tinman is used to coaching typical HS XC runners. 60 minutes a day within several weeks is reckless and ignorant for brand new runners. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

A 60 minute run for some might be 5 or 6 miles, not crazy 1 or 2 times a week.

Another coach. wrote:

I don’t think Tinman is used to coaching typical HS XC runners. 60 minutes a day within several weeks is reckless and ignorant for brand new runners. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

Basketball players practice for 60-90 minutes a day within several weeks. Why shouldn’t runners?

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Another coach. wrote:

I don’t think Tinman is used to coaching typical HS XC runners. 60 minutes a day within several weeks is reckless and ignorant for brand new runners. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

Basketball players practice for 60-90 minutes a day within several weeks. Why shouldn’t runners?

And swimmers practice for hours a day. Why shouldn’t runners?

I honestly don't remember what I ran when I first started high school XC, but I can't believe it was much less than 5 miles/day on average, plus warmup, by the end of fall. I'm curious to hear from coaches who think 60-minutes/day is way too much for a freshman. How many miles is an average run for your 9th-graders, and how fast?

Another coach. wrote:

I don’t think Tinman is used to coaching typical HS XC runners. 60 minutes a day within several weeks is reckless and ignorant for brand new runners. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

I started distance running when I was 14. Ran 42:20 10k off of 4 mile runs every day for a month after running the 880 in Jr high. Over the next 8 weeks, I built up to about an hour a day running a roadrace every couple weeks. My last race before xc season started was a 37 :14 10k. I would guess I was running around 7:30 pace as an average.

Throughout high school I always ran the best when I stayed right around 60 minutes a day. Much more and I would get an over use injury. My pace got faster as my normal pace got down to 6:40 -7:00 when I was running close to 5 minute pace for 5k.

The amount of freshman boys capable of running a 37:14 10K before they ever do their first XC race is exceedingly small. You have to keep in mind a lot of freshman that get into XC do it because they don't want to do PE but need at least 2 years of PE credit and can't make any other sports team at their school.

Is this what people pay for? My coach preached this 20 years ago.

Not groundbreakng wrote:

Is this what people pay for? My coach preached this 20 years ago.

People usually pay coaches to get good results rather than to be groundbreaking. As you can see from this thread, different coaches have very different ideas about how to do that. Uncoached runners often have no clue at all.

From the man himself:

https://youtu.be/MAMU8i1F538?t=178

The next 90 seconds or so after that 2:58 mark he monologues about why. Enjoy.

I've been coaching our boy's squad heavily based on Tinman principles for the last 2 years.

For the juniors and seniors on varsity, 60min/day is pretty close to what we do, including workout days. The top runners (just three of them at the moment) go up to 90min for their long run, but the majority of the team won't go higher than 10 throughout the season, so anywhere from 68-85min for the majority of the team. Previously I was using Daniels as it worked for me in hs, but I found many of the workouts to be too difficult for even the top runners. I also found my athletes who weren't ranked in the top 5 spots to actually complete a run when told to do it in minutes versus miles. Also creates a pretty consistent finishing time for all of the athletes.

We had a standout freshman this year (16:23) who I told from week one I would be limiting his mileage and workouts and to trust me that it was for his long-term development. We had two stars (a pair of twin brothers who both ran 14:59 this season) who are pretty accustomed to doing 3 mile warm ups and cooldowns after workouts. I would have the freshman do 2 up and 1 down, and usually 2 less reps than the seniors.

Another thing I found to be successful was to create a "team long run" culture. I used Twitter to advertise a weekly Sunday long run on dirt roads close to many major schools. We had team members from 5 different schools including our own show up and would sometimes have 30+ kids including many of the top in the county showing up to run together. This gave my super-stars some kids to run with who were also low 15 instead of always running alone, and gave my 5th+ spots a group to run with instead of being strung out after the first few miles. A commitment to the 10-14mi long run definitely led to major improvements.

We went from 14th in the state two years ago to 5th this year.

Two years ago at State meet:

8th- 15:47 (So)

9th- 15:48 (So)

86th: 16:58 (Sr)

182nd: 17:50 (Jr)

214th: 18:16 (Jr)

216th: 18:23 (Sr)

243rd: 19:47 (Sr)

This year, State meet, worse conditions:

2nd- 15:18 (Sr)

3rd- 15:23 (Sr)

19th- 16:23 (Fr)

143rd- 17:38 (Jr)

165- 17:50 (Jr)

209- 18:19 (Jr)

223- 18:42 (Fr)

I've kept the workouts simple too. Building up to 3min on/90sec off fartlek reps, a "tinman tempo" plus short speed after, and the long run + taking out a workout in exchange for tempoing dual meets and often purposely sacrificing "wins" at duals to run easier and do a short fartlek plus extended cooldown after. I'm sold on it, it's just simple stuff and we have almost no injuries.

What’s would a typical racing week (on Saturday) and non racing week look like for a Freshman?