Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 11/24 (Philly Edition)

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OR: Sorry to hear the news. It's not how many times you fall, but how many times you get back up that counts!

Random Running Related Good News (at least for me...)

So, when Tokyo was announced as the 2020 summer Olympics site, I put it in the back of my mind. It's likely the closest I'll ever be to an Olympics... keep it in mind. At the beginning of this year, I got it in my head that even if the stadium events were sold out, it would be cool to watch the marathon... But WOW, accommodations in and around Tokyo with the entire sporting world in town... Economic nose-bleed... So I kinda let it go. Then, a while back, they decide to send the marathon to Sapporo! So I get online and I book an apartment in Sapporo for marathon week... why the hell not... I can cancel for free until July of next year... Now, I see that they have announced the route: The start/finish at Odori Park -- 500 meters from the place I randomly rented. So that pretty much seals the deal! I'm going to the Olympic marathon!

Bruin, that sounds like a good method to prevent bonking. I looked back at a few logs of friends who bonked the marathon recently and their HR was much too high for them way too early in each case. They couldn't have been comfortable and probably should have known they were going to hard without any gadget to tell them so. A simple spot check may have prevented them bonking.

I think I may copy your approach with a few modifications. I set up my watch for 30 second averaging on HR so that I don't happen to glance down and catch a spike or top of the sawtooth waveform and get concerned. My MaxHR must be a lot higher than yours. The one marathon that I have data on, I averaged 164 bpm and was between 170 and 175 in the last 10K in a 60 second positive split. So basically, I think if I see 170 before Mile 20, I'm probably in serious trouble. In fact, 165 before about Mile 16 or 17 is likely trouble. Having said that, I think I will know by feel whether or not I'm in trouble without any gadgets but having HR as a sanity check probably doesn't hurt especially considering my lack of experience.

After more thought, I think I will go out in 6:2x then settle in at 6:1x-high to 6:2x-low if comfort allows. Once settled in, I'm confident if I follow the Bruin Process I'll likely finish well and happy with the experience.

BHViking: A somewhat unrelated question for you... is your HR for MP training runs roughly the same as your race day HR? I tend to have a rather large discrepancy, something like 10 bpm (5% of max) higher even in the first few kilometers of a race. My brain has me so juiced up...

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

BHViking: A somewhat unrelated question for you... is your HR for MP training runs roughly the same as your race day HR? I tend to have a rather large discrepancy, something like 10 bpm (5% of max) higher even in the first few kilometers of a race. My brain has me so juiced up...

Hey Coach!

I didn't really do any MP training runs because I don't know what MP is. However, I have run comfortably fast on multiple occasions at multiple levels of fast intensities, mostly on the lower side of fast.

Looks like generally speaking, it looks like I'd end up with the following data in running by feel in recent training:

Lower intensity long tempos: 155-165 bpm

Faster tempo: 165-170 bpm

Release the Hounds: 170+

Marathon Data from 2 years ago (no bonk):

Miles 1 - 7: 155-162

Miles 8 - 21: 165 - 166

Miles 22 - Finish: 168 - 175

Overall Avg: 164

Just looking this data up from recent training and the previous marathon to share is very helpful.

To answer your question, although I don't specifically dial into a pace that I believe to be MP, it looks like I tend run my workouts at just below but nearly the same HR as the marathon. At least according to the old and limited data that I currently have. I should learn a lot more breaking down CIM's results.

A few days ago there was a little discussion about marathon shuffling. When I was a youngster in high school racing on the track and in cross-country, I had a nice long stride and bounce and kick. I didn't run track or XC in college and after that all my racing was much longer distances on the road and I've definitely turned into a bit of a shuffler and I think this time around I will try doing strides as some of you were talking about to try to break out of it.

No turkey trotting here of any kind. My legs aren't sore anymore but I did have to walk up a long sustained hill yesterday and I could still feel deep-seated tiredness. I usually take at least a week of no running after a marathon to let things calm down (also I enjoy the little mental refresh). Weather is supposed to be pretty miserable the next couple days, so I'll just start back up again on a Tuesday as usual. I just signed up for a February half-marathon so already putting last weekend in the rear view and looking only forward :-)

Hope everyone had a good holiday!

AJ - A nail-biter in the Iron Bowl. You must be on edge, my friend.

As for me, I have some surprising—almost shocking—news. The leg was feeling pretty bad yesterday, and I was planning on taking some time off, I but was actually able to run today, and ran decently—and in the hills, no less. I woke up feeling okay, and thought, what the heck, try a few miles, and ended up running a hilly 11.33. Not saying that all systems are “go,” but I will say that there is still some air left in the balloon..,after giving myself up for dead yesterday.

Hey, Allen, what’s happening over at your place?

outsiderunner wrote:

I woke up feeling okay, and thought, what the heck, try a few miles, and ended up running a hilly 11.33. Not saying that all systems are “go,” but I will say that there is still some air left in the balloon..,after giving myself up for dead yesterday.

Hey, Allen, what’s happening over at your place?

Hey, that's good news, especially after yesterday's doom and gloom. Maybe a little caution is due, though? I ran through injuries the past few years, and now can't run at all. Be careful. We're not young anymore!

I worked most of the day, but am home now relaxing by the woodstove. Guests left this morning, just bride and me and the two cats. A dry New York State Finger Lakes Riesling in my glass.

Interesting...a dry Riesling.

I will be cautious, and conscious of my elderly status. Will see how it feels on Monday and go from there. Just happy to be where I am right now...

Very cool. Thanks for sharing.

I do have just a word of caution for you, though, as you look for clues in your data. My HR data looks pretty much identical through the first 20 miles of both my best and worst races. I've been a long time advocate of HR training, but I will admit that sometimes it's more like looking for omens in entrails: "Hey Pheidippides! Go gut a chicken for me and see what the gizzard says about my GMP!"

BHViking: an addendum to my previous post...

2 marathons - kilometers 10-30 - avg HRs (my max is 200ish)

Race One: 181,182,181,183,181,181,181, 183, 182,182,183, 182,182,181,182,184,184...

Race Two: 180,181,181,182,182,181,181,181,181,181, (turn into headwind) 183,183,184,183,182,182

Race One was one of my strongest ever finishes.

Race Two ended up a complete BONK-O-RAMA.

outsiderunner wrote:

Interesting...a dry Riesling.

Winery is in Ovid, NY, hometown of the great Mike Wykoff. He and future Olympic marathoner John Tuttle had some epic battles back in high school. Both were in the small school division, while at the same meets, Pete Pfitzinger had less competition in the large school division. Wish all three had gone head-to-head. Sadly, Mike suffered a career-ending injury in college.

Thanks...I enjoy hearing about runners from the “running boom,” or golden era...back when running meant something and was “a thing” this country. Indeed, that guy was a beast. I think it was spelled Wyckoff,” though. Cornell, right?

outsiderunner wrote:

Interesting...a dry Riesling.

I will be cautious, and conscious of my elderly status. Will see how it feels on Monday and go from there. Just happy to be where I am right now...

You should foam roll it.

runrincerepeat wrote:

outsiderunner wrote:

Interesting...a dry Riesling.

I will be cautious, and conscious of my elderly status. Will see how it feels on Monday and go from there. Just happy to be where I am right now...

You should foam roll it.

Thanks, RRR. I am rolling it with my stick. Much less awkward for me.

Stone, good hearing from you.

I’m healthy, for the most part. Foot and hip are pretty much fine. That pelvis issue has been hanging around a bit though.

But to be honest, I’ve just been enjoying down time. I walk 2-3 miles most days, and run once a week to catch up with some friends when things work out that I can make it. But I’ve come to enjoy walking quite a bit - mostly because I can go for a good long walk after a big meal or happy hour with friends.

I have had a few other things going on that have been taking up my attention - my job tends to be really busy at year end, and that happened a little earlier than usual this year - so it has been nice to not have to deal with that stress of intense training or the pressure of an upcoming race.

Still, I do get the itch to get back after it a little more from time to time. We will see.

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

BHViking: an addendum to my previous post...

2 marathons - kilometers 10-30 - avg HRs (my max is 200ish)

Race One: 181,182,181,183,181,181,181, 183, 182,182,183, 182,182,181,182,184,184...

Race Two: 180,181,181,182,182,181,181,181,181,181, (turn into headwind) 183,183,184,183,182,182

Race One was one of my strongest ever finishes.

Race Two ended up a complete BONK-O-RAMA.

Woahhhhhh!!! Noted!

I've had 2 good marathon finishes and 3 bad. I only have HR data off a non-wrist based reliable HRM in the one. So, I appreciate your data as another lessoned learned.

At the end of the day, if saw a "Too High HR" yet felt unstressed, I'd maintain pace. Hadd preached that increased fitness would result in increasing your ability to run closer and closer to your MaxHR over longer and longer periods of time. Maybe he was right. Maybe he was wrong.

My "back-it-off-a-notch" strategy is by feel with HR as a sanity check. The thought process would be, "OMG, should this feel this hard this early? If sure feels like it. Oh no, HR is super high too. Better back it off." Hell, even if the HR wasn't overly high I'd probably still back it off a notch when push comes to shove!