Let’s see how much attention this gets - Jen Rhines shares her thoughts

malmo wrote:

TinaInCali wrote:

Unlike Goucher, Cain or Fleshman, Rhines is a mature person who understands personal responsibility. She is one to be lauded.

My guess is the MeToo crowd will disparage her for being the female version of an Uncle Tom.

It's clear that you've never read Uncle Tom's Cabin. Had you, you would have understand that Kara Goucher and Mary Cain (Auntie Toms) were the one's who stood up to Salazar (Simon Legree) and have paid a price for it.

I suspect you won't, but educate yourself. Read the book, or forever hold to your ignoranc.

+1

How did they pay the price for standing up to him?

They didn't stand up to him. They trashed him after they were gone.

What they do after leaving is all on them. Nobody is holding them back.

Well said, Jen.

THANK YOU JEN!!!!!!!!!

Finally, someone who can speak from experience that actually "Gets it". I would argue that there are many more "Good" coaches out there as opposed to "Bad" ones. The athlete is in control, and if need be can look to parents, friends and or other athletes for support. Mary Cain had all of these available to her and made a conscious choice to move across the country to chase her dream and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. That being said due to her age and inexperience extreme due diligence was in order and needed to be done prior to the move. Mom and or Dad should have moved out with her for support on all levels. Perhaps a trial period should have been put in place to see if she was adjusting. Maybe she should have slowly incorporated NOP's workouts into her own while staying at home and then taking short trips out to Portland during spring break and summer to train until she completed high school.

Bottom line: Salazar is a control freak who attracted drama queens like Kara and Mary, and the biggest lever for controlling young women psychologically is probably weight. One little aside from him can have their hamster-wheel brain spinning for weeks. Guys not so much.

He seemed more laissez-faire with the men partly from probably being raised as a Latino sexist (sorry PC folks, I know a few Cubans, it's part of the culture) plus Galen was his focus of control on the men's side. Also he tends to recruit naturally skinny guys like Mo and Kejelcha (and now KoKo on the women's side; Hassan is an interesting case of a woman who indeed lost weight and succeeded accordingly).

People act like getting and staying lean is this impossible tightrope. Not if you eat right; in particular runners eat way too much carbs and undereat protein. Trying to get low bodyfat on low protein means starvation. At 63 I eat all I want and am always under 10% bodyfat, but I eat upwards of 200g protein/day from healthy animal sources. Effortless, and amazing recovery and haven't had so much as a sniffle in years where I used to be sick all winter from high carbs and high miles. Plus I am incredibly strong in the upper body for a runner, without having to bust my ass more than an hour or two a week in the weight room.

Conventional nutrition is in the Dark Ages, since it is belief-based and not science-based; German metabolic scientists in teh 1920's were leagues ahead of Americans today, and the diabesity epidemic spawned from American diet hegemony is the result. Trying to stay lean on high-carb/low-protein diets is asking for ED's foe anyone, much less sensitive teenage girls.

Forest Gump here wrote:

Wow, great article.

It shows again, that being responsible starts with yourself.

Mary Cain could have always left the Oregon project but she didn't.

That's not the point of the article. She is showing that there are good coaches out there, how female runners can have a lasting career with the right support system, and most of how she did it was not how the NOP operated.

Good post ! That sums it up ,

+1

YMMV wrote:

At 63 I eat all I want and am always under 10% bodyfat, but I eat upwards of 200g protein/day from healthy animal sources.

I have always had a high-carb diet and seem to do quite well with it, but would love to know some specifics about what you eat. As i get older I feel the need to change it up.

Thank you.

txRUNNERgirl wrote:

Forest Gump here wrote:

Wow, great article.

It shows again, that being responsible starts with yourself.

Mary Cain could have always left the Oregon project but she didn't.

That's not the point of the article. She is showing that there are good coaches out there, how female runners can have a lasting career with the right support system, and most of how she did it was not how the NOP operated.

Nailed it, tRg! In fact, NOP wasn't set up to operate the way even a typical high level college program does, nor should it have been. Cain couldn't know that going in, her parents shouldn't be expected to know that going in (though it would have been nice if they looked at it with more jaundiced eyes). The people running NOP should have applied a stringent screening process, a la NFL Combine, and either figured out how to adapt their system to support Cain best or told her to find a more appropriate coaching situation. But that's an idealized scenario you'd expect from a professional organization with high standards and accountability throughout and when you simply let Capriotti and Salazar and their lackeys call the shots and run the show as a petty fiefdom you probably won't get that. Would that Cain had someone like Vigil guiding her progress the past 6 years… not that Nike would easily allow that.

Not how I see it. Alberto wasn’t making an emotional response. He was exerting tough love.

I always did like Jen. Even though she had a really peculiar running form. Gutsy competitor.

If you are all worried about "emotional responses" and things of that nature then you aren't cut out for elite / world class athletics. It's a hard business. The weak will not make it. It's not for everyone. Maybe yoga would be more calming and soothing.

Bib #1 wrote:

I always did like Jen. Even though she had a really peculiar running form. Gutsy competitor.

Jen has a degree in civil engineering...all you need to know about her practical, low-drama problem-solving mindset.

She seems to be almost unable to push off in her stride resulting in a "turbo shuffle"

I always thought she would be perfect for the marathon, but her 2:29 was not impressive compared to her track times.

Nice article.

I think it is important to have balance in this discussion which Jen provides. I said in an earlier post that in my coaching career I've told athletes male and female that their weight is affecting their performance on few occasions. And I've probably said it in a joking way once or twice, which I guess by definition is body shaming. Shaming was not my intent and to the best of my knowledge, it wasn't taken take way. I told them about their weight in the same way I would tell them about flexibility, hydration or not getting enough rest, etc. I think this hyper sensitivity to not being able to discuss weigh, which is a major aspect to being successful runner does female athletes a disservice. There will be coaches who will opt out of coaching females for fear of a backlash like Cain's for example. Following the discussion on this board, you get the impression that when a female runner's career does not work out the way they wanted, someone has to be blamed for it. It's ironic that when Cain and Kara's careers where going well they only had glowing praise for Alberto and the NOP. I specifically recall both of these women going beyond coaching and expressing a personal affection for Alberto. I have so much respect for Athlete's like Ali, Carlos & Smith who took a stand at the peak of their career, when they had everything to lose as oppose to athletes like Kara, Cain and Kaepernick for example who become disgruntled when things aren't going well.

I think she's kind of missing the point that is floating in the current conversation. Nobody is arguing that weight is a factor (even acknowledged by Mary Cain when she came out with her story), but how it's obsession and over emphasis can be self defeating. Couple that with abuse from coaches, it can be downright DESTRUCTIVE and result in harm.

There's a difference between cutting out junk food/establishing healthy eating and nutrition habits than seeking to minimize all fat before one reaches a breaking point both physically and mentally (as Salazar seemed obsessed with), including the off label use of prescription drugs and banned methods of drug/supplement administration, and mental abuse. Jen Rhines was fortunate to have been in an environment insulated from negative influences that create the environment for weight/eating issues, but her situation was/is not ubiquitous and she glosses over the fact and thus misses the point to the larger conversation.

The parts I read were cogent and coherent.

Big ups to Rhines for telling it like it is.

Timing of this blog certainly reflects back to Cain, though she isn't mentioned.

The gist of the article seems to affirm what others are saying; Cain is "deflecting".

Instead of Cain owning her issues (and failures/successes), she chose to blame Salazar/NOP, knowing claims of victimization directed thataway were likely receive maximum attention/support and minimum scrutiny.

Ernest wrote:

The parts I read were cogent and coherent.

Big ups to Rhines for telling it like it is.

Timing of this blog certainly reflects back to Cain, though she isn't mentioned.

The gist of the article seems to affirm what others are saying; Cain is "deflecting".

Instead of Cain owning her issues (and failures/successes), she chose to blame Salazar/NOP, knowing claims of victimization directed thataway were likely receive maximum attention/support and minimum scrutiny.

If that is your takeaway of what Rhines' intent was then your educators failed you.

We have all been in a bad relationship where when it ended, we wished it ended a lot sooner. Even a good relationship that goes bad or goes stale, when it ends we reflect back and realize it could have ended sooner. This is the same with all of the NOP athletes who've had negative experiences. I wish people would stop blaming the athletes and have more empathy for the situations that the athletes found themselves in. It's easy to say "why didn't they leave?" or "why wait until now to say something?" But we've all been in some relationship that we just didn't quite have the guts to end it. A lot of people were manipulated. The system wasn't built for some. It's extremely hard to walk away from something and I wish people realized that we all have or are in some relationship (school, work, friendship, romantic, etc) that should end now.

Rhines was able to develop in a proper timeline in a system that developed athletes her age. Cain was too young to be working at the level she was. Had she gone through college all 4 years and then joined NOP, this would have been a totally different discussion. We need to realize she went from having to raise her hand in class for permission to go to the bathroom to working with a very demanding coach. Not a healthy timeline at all no matter who you are.