we're witnessing the end of the US women being competitive on the world stage....
I mean let's get real here for a minute. IF you expect to be a competitive world class runner you WILL have to make sacrifices with your body to do so. There's no getting around this. If people come into world class running expecting something different they are delusional. It's not the fault of the system.
She makes good points, but since she’s the expert what is she doing to fix the problem? All she did was complain about the system.
If people want to be treated differently then they can’t expect treated the same.
Jogger Hobby wrote:
I mean let's get real here for a minute. IF you expect to be a competitive world class runner you WILL have to make sacrifices with your body to do so. There's no getting around this. If people come into world class running expecting something different they are delusional. It's not the fault of the system.
But 5 broken bones though? I'm talking about Mary Cain. All that lab-rat effort by Salazar only to get Mary Cain worse is an absolute fail.
Director XV wrote:
we're witnessing the end of the US women being competitive on the world stage....
nope. girls will continue to want to be the best girl in their league, conference, state, country, & world. These individuals will continue to make whatever sacrifices they think they need to make to get there.
Didn't read but the header statement is absurd. The whole point of training is to change your body. This sh!t is just surreal in it's irrationality.
So when she made that balls comment she actually meant it?
Any tips on getting past their paywall so I can actually read this?
That was a brutal read. Look, I get it, eating disorders are terrible and care should be taken by coaches and training staff to make sure they aren't in any way encouraged. That being said, being unnaturally thin is just the way this sport works if you want to be elite (or even if you just want to maximize your own talent). There is obviously a line you don't want to cross before it becomes unhealthily thin, and obviously girls have a different progression arc than boys, but Fleshman's attitude (blaming men for everything) is unbearable (same goes for Goucher).
Read the article, don't comment on the headline.
She makes a very solid argument about the physiological differences between men and women and taking a different timeline with girls transitioning from college (or high school, like Cain) into the professional ranks. Men's performance improvements might track linearly with age, she argues, but it's not the same for women. By measuring or grading their performances on the same linear scale, the system burns away too many talented females before they've had a chance to mature.
She is not arguing that body shape/composition is unimportant in running.
except they need parents, coaches, ADs, school boards (and their lawyers) to all be on board and supportive. instead of 4:00 1500 meter runners we're going to get 4:00+hr marathoners
high school xc coach wrote:
Director XV wrote:
we're witnessing the end of the US women being competitive on the world stage....
nope. girls will continue to want to be the best girl in their league, conference, state, country, & world. These individuals will continue to make whatever sacrifices they think they need to make to get there.
Yeah, but where do you find evidence that letting women put in weight will increase their performance?
What’s the priority? Winning or feeling good?
You don't often hear of African women struggling with this transition.
Th3_D4rk_Kn1ght wrote:
That was a brutal read. Look, I get it, eating disorders are terrible and care should be taken by coaches and training staff to make sure they aren't in any way encouraged. That being said, being unnaturally thin is just the way this sport works if you want to be elite (or even if you just want to maximize your own talent). There is obviously a line you don't want to cross before it becomes unhealthily thin, and obviously girls have a different progression arc than boys, but Fleshman's attitude (blaming men for everything) is unbearable (same goes for Goucher).
I’m female. As a D1 runner I developed an eating disorder under a female coach. Later, I had a male coach and recovered with his help. I give a lot of credit to my male coach for my recovery. The man blame is crazy. That is not the issue...
michaeltheheart wrote:
Read the article, don't comment on the headline.
She makes a very solid argument about the physiological differences between men and women and taking a different timeline with girls transitioning from college (or high school, like Cain) into the professional ranks. Men's performance improvements might track linearly with age, she argues, but it's not the same for women. By measuring or grading their performances on the same linear scale, the system burns away too many talented females before they've had a chance to mature.
She is not arguing that body shape/composition is unimportant in running.
+1.
Read the article. She makes a lot of sense.
whitewashed wrote:
You don't often hear of African women struggling with this transition.
Not hearing about it doesn't mean it isn't happening as well.
Mary Cain has brought some rightful attention to an important issue but to pretend men are the cause of this problem is absurd and detrimental.
Men and women are contributing to this problem .
whitewashed wrote:
You don't often hear of African women struggling with this transition.
It is easier when even non-running Africans mostly have a perfect runner's build. The Western body dysmorphia is in large part due to the overall obese social and food environment in developed societies. If you have a good running physique in the West you are pressured to eat more and not be the nail that sticks up from the lardy sea of slobs. Coaches have to deal with weight issues more because of this societal pressure to be overweight. Some, like Alberto, don't do so with much skill or subtlety.
Co-Flounder wrote:
She makes good points, but since she’s the expert what is she doing to fix the problem? All she did was complain about the system.
If people want to be treated differently then they can’t expect treated the same.
It says in the article that she's coaching women... idk what else you expect her to do. And you're responding to an op-ed where she's getting the word out... and if you look at her social media, she's also getting the word out there. What isn't she doing to fix the problem? Taking over USATF and NCAA and IAAF and educating or banning every single coach who isn't on board with her message?
Lauren Fleshman (@laurenfleshman) is a two-time 5,000-meter national champion and head coach of the professional women’s running group Littlewing Athletics.
Anyway, my take: she should solely take personal responsibility for messing up her career. There are a million pitfalls in a runner's career. There are plenty of coaches, teams, training groups that believe in myths and perpetuate bad practices despite better knowledge existing. Some of them are harmless, some hurt a little, some hurt a lot. Young women undereating is one that can hurt a lot. But despite her being educated better, she still decided to undereat. So she blames the people who advised her of this? It's crazy. Every athlete is going to receive a ton of bad advice in their lives and they are ultimately the boss, especially in an individual sport like running. There's no blaming anyone else for anything.
It is pretty tiresome hearing all these people complaining about these pro coaches have such authority over them (though in her case she said it started when she was still at Stanford -- Would she have lost a scholarship or been kicked off the team if she hadn't lost weight? No, in her case it was simply her choice). If you could have coached yourself, you would have. You failed yourself and had to ask for other people to control your life and then they proceeded to fail you too.
If I was put into a 16 year old's body with national talent, I'd do everything I could to be as self-sufficient as possible. Choose a college with a coach whose beliefs align with mine so I essentially train and live the way I want without losing my scholarship. Learn about running in my spare time so that I'm prepared to coach myself. Use my free education to get a job that supports me without having crazy work hours. And then be prepared to tell any sponsor who wants to sign me out of college that I'm the #1 authority over myself and that any coach/trainer/doctor/manager/nutritionist they provide me should be considered my support staff, not an authority over me. If none of them will give me a good enough salary to quit my job under those conditions, then I'd take a free gear and travel sponsorship from a smaller club, continue working to pay rent, and do what I want.
The whole "sign your life away and submit to a coach" deal that all these sponsors offer is absurd. Tennis players hire a coach if they feel like it and fire them if it's not working out. Some don't have coaches at all. It's an individual sport. Coaches are for team sports. It is absolutely absurd the amount of authority runners let their coaches have over them.
What we should really be teaching the next generation is to take personal responsibility. Yes, high school coaches and college coaches must be authority figures, but after that, the paradigm ought to shift, and anyone looking to run post-collegiately should prepare for it. It's absurd that the paradigm doesn't shift but instead the sponsors give coaches authority over athletes the same way schools give coaches authority over student-athletes.
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