Guelph Implodes

Being an OUA running around the time of the bid scandal, it was a scandal. The UofG xc course did not even meet the course requirements set out by AC if I remember correctly and they did not submit a proper bid. AC still gave the champs to them, and Kingston had to appeal. Maybe not a huge scandal, but still a scandal.

As for the rest of your comment, why do you feel the need to defend the guy? Do you know what really happened or are you choosing to bury your head in the sand? A coach that does not put Athletes well being as their number one priority should not be coaching. I have heard numerous athletes saying DST did not prioritize the well being of the athletes. That alone should be enough to can him.

Shite happens, but it's OK if its in the U.S, eh Jesse?

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6994677

" They were sleeping together her senior year of college. She stuck around to train with him for another two years post collegiate before he quit coaching at Davis. If he was going to be "fired" for that, it would have happened sooner. "

Similar, but not the same situation at UofG. We also don't know all the facts about what happened at UofG so how can you even compare?

I think additionally what happened in 2006 is part of a long line of cases where DST did not treat athletes right.

It's about PATTERNS of behaviour. Very few people with even average involvement of running in Canada are surprised that we are here. The guy was underhanded and ruthless in getting what he wanted, taking down who/whatever was in his way.

The most appalling aspect of this is his 13 year free reign when he should have been fired on the spot in 2006, according to UofG.

The positive results of some athletes simply do not erase or mitigate even one abuse of power. Shame on anyone who believes otherwise.

This is exactly the kind of nonsense that emboldened Speed River leadership to behave as they did.

The Speed River/Guelph leadership never "stood down" during the Canadian XC bid scandal - which represented tens of thousands of dollars of value - nor the various other issues over the years. To do so would entail admitting wrong-doing or, at the very least, withdrawing their 'bid' from submission and that most certainly is not what happened. This isn't a difference of opinion, it's a verifiable fact. Losing hard fought appeals is not 'standing down'.

"So the University let Dave go cause it appears he may not have been truthful back in 2006."

It appears? May not have been truthful?

Again, this is the kind of apologist bs that enables such behaviour to continue, leading to both minor and major indiscretions.

"While the 2019 investigation was ongoing, the University received new information related to the earlier investigation that made it clear that Scott-Thomas had lied repeatedly in 2006 about several significant matters. The receipt of that new information resulted in the termination of Scott-Thomas from his U of G position. Had the University been aware in 2006 of this information, it would have terminated its relationship with Scott-Thomas at that time."

https://gryphons.ca/news/2020/1/9/track-and-field-update-about-dave-scott-thomas-u-of-gs-running-program.aspx

What was the scandal and wrongdoing? Was money exchanged behind the scenes? Were favours offered and accepted? Was there illegal activity involved in the bid?

Losing an appeal doesn’t make it a scandal. Sounds like AC made the mistake in that case, but have you proved any wrongdoing from Speed River?

Yeah shame on me then - appalling pattern of behaviour - give me a break - what constitutes a pattern in your mind - he built a world class program with great results for multiple athletes for a long time. Was he competitive - of course, did he do everything in his power to get good athletes to come to Guelph to run - of course. This guy was a stand out performer and so much of the sour grapes that some athletes have with him is just that. No coach is immune to that. If you are a coach ask yourself if you ever coached athletes that were uncoachable or were not a good fit for the program and had to go? Do you think they would go quietly - likely not. So much of this story is contrived and mean spirited. this is no scandal - and I am sure time will show that. No doubt that mistakes were made in the past, and he has to live with those mistakes . I am super sad that this world class program has been blown up - it was an amazing run and I am not sure anyone else will be able to build something like it again. There was a reason AC latched on to the program here in Guelph and its going to be a long time for something like it every comes around again. Back to rag tag groups that come and go around the country.

It only took 14 years to even have this conversation.

I’m sure dst’s defenders wish it took 14 centuries instead, before any sort of accountability.

I’m sure fred is someone who’s defending his own paycheck (which apparently involves silence by everyone else), but sadly these scandals seem far more common in USA. That’s why the pattern is so obvious.

I hope it’s not too soon for people near Guelph to talk about opening up these world-class facilities to more frequent use for the everyday health of regular people or some mass-participation events.

If the program has been secretive & heavy-handed, that is an easy change to make in future.

So Alberto Salazar should still be coaching based on you logic?

As I've been trying to say throughout-- including in a blog post from the time-- there has been a pattern of impunity surrounding DST and those who worked alongside him that was aided and abetted by a willfully blind AC and, apparently, U of G. What he stands accused of (and these details WILL be revealed in due course) is obviously the worst of it; but, that doesn't excuse any of the other stuff. All of it-- including the success-- indicates a very brazen win-at-all-costs attitude that entails, if necessary, shouldering others aside and ignoring basic ethics. Part-and-parcel of this attitude is a basic disrespect for one's colleagues and competitors, and a willingness to discredit them if/when they speak out against you (and there WERE attempts to discredit the athlete who make accusations against DST in 2006, along with the lies about the incident that have now been uncovered).

And in every instance, the defense of bad behaviour was the success of the program, which presumably HAD to mean, in the eyes of DST apologists, that the detractors were just jealous losers. The claim was even made that the rest of us would have done the same sorts of things, if we only had DST/Guelph's "drive". But guess what: This is sport we're talking about. Bad ethics are always bad, but when people behave poorly in order to win at sport-- including and especially in pretty low-stakes arenas like that of Canadian athletics-- it completely defeats the purpose. Even one ethical abuse, if it is telling enough, is sufficient to discredit decades of success. But then, in cases like this, there is NEVER just one ethical abuse. Once some people experience real impunity, they simply can't help themselves.

P.S. Guelph never "stood down" after being caught brazenly colluding with AC to subvert the AC Nats bid process. And this WAS a corruption scandal, because they did it for money-- the quite substantial revenues that would accrue from hosting.

Anyone that hasn't bothered to read the publicly available info on this stuff yet clearly isn't interested in learning about what happened.

If you are just new to the sport, then be sure to read Boyd's blog post about the Canadian XC scandal as a starting point:

http://physi-kult.blogspot.com/2014/04/two-cheers-for-ac.html

Boy you really are convinced of things - seriously - you argue

" Even one ethical abuse, if it is telling enough, is sufficient to discredit decades of success. But then, in cases like this, there is NEVER just one ethical abuse. Once some people experience real impunity, they simply can't help themselves"

Success is success, its simple, results are results, they were not ill-gotten, they were earned by the athlete and coach. You can't erase them, no one cheated to get them. As a coach - I got nothing but respect from him.

all of his coaching awards post 2006 should be erased. Lets face it; had he been fired then (as UofG says he would have been had he not lied to their investigators), he would not have won those awards.

over blowing this story wrote:

Boy you really are convinced of things - seriously - you argue

" Even one ethical abuse, if it is telling enough, is sufficient to discredit decades of success. But then, in cases like this, there is NEVER just one ethical abuse. Once some people experience real impunity, they simply can't help themselves"

Success is success, its simple, results are results, they were not ill-gotten, they were earned by the athlete and coach. You can't erase them, no one cheated to get them. As a coach - I got nothing but respect from him.

What about all the athletes that weren't a success under him and pushed away by how he treated athletes? How do you categorize those non-sucesses? You can't erase those either. Some athletes left the program never to reach their potential because of DST.

Yes, that article details cheating by dst & AC et al.

Also, as it says, a miracle that an appeal was even granted, complete with a whitewashed summary.

Yeah, that blog post, overstuffed with big words and generally verbose, doesn’t detail any corrupt activities on the part of DST/Guelph. What was DST offering AC, or holding over AC, that would pressure them into giving a bid to Guelph without due process? That would be a scandal. But, what is detailed is AC deciding to award a bid without following their process.

I did see a lot of vitriol spouted by Steve. Lots of fighting ghosts of the past...maybe it’s time to move on.

You think it was a coincidence that guelph won all these bids, got it. Sorry! Big word. Coincidence means it was just good luck!

I ran in OUA. Not for Guelph. There is certainly some resentment of the Guelph program that stems from jealousy. People will use this situation as leverage to attack them. As an athlete who competed against them, it was frustrating yet envy provoking to know that they were going to win with ease and that other teams had no chance. I dealt with that outlook for my 4+ years of university-that Guelph is going to win in cross country. I'd notice others take subtle or blatant jabs at the program and their athletes out of sheer jealousy of their dominance. They would say sensationalised things like- they have no lives outside running, they dont party, they're boring, they dont go to classes, they will work at Burger King later on in life, they dont eat junk food, etc. It was all provoked by jealousy. A lot of exceptional athletes came through the program and Dave was no doubt an incredibly exceptional coach. However, his firing was 100% deserved if the allegations are true. That does not change the fact that he was a great coach, but hopefully this can be used to raise more awareness and deter other people from acting inappropriate when in a position of power. I wish the Guelph program the best going forward in whatever capacity that may be. They may lose a bit in the near future but if they're determined and persevere they will get back to the high level they're accustomed to showcasing.