Snowflakes win again? DI Northeast regional XC championships is changed to road race because it snowed

Ok. Given that I used to coach at nearby Cornell, I've made some calls and know have a lot of information to share.

Here are the facts as I understand them.

1) The snow isn't an issue. 9 inches in Buffalo is nothing and the kids had school the next day.

2) The course was schedule to be held on a golf course that is basically naturally very wet and almost a swamp if there is any rain. There were already huge puddles on the course before the snow which came on top of it. The problem is given it was 15 degrees last night there is a TON of ice and it's particularly bad at the start. One source told me that "if they ran the race on the xc course, you'd have 15 broken ankles in the first 200 meters."

If you wanted to run a high school meet at a park in town, no problem. The issue is this particular golf course and all of the ice.

3) The switch to the road race has led to some interesting developments. The decision only officially came out late last night. Many of the teams were already in Buffalo and hadn't brought their racing flats. Some are raiding the local running stores. Others are sending coaches back to try to get their flats (but imagine if they aren't all in the locker room, how do you get into kids dorms, etc?)

4) After talking to the people I did today, I'm convinced this is the right call. Any coaches that want to bitch and moan about the decision, here is what I'll tell you after having talked to some people. Please drive out to the course and try to run the first 400 meters without falling down.

Thank god you waited to contribute to the conversation until you found all this out. Oh wait, your post complaining about how this is a disgrace is still up on page 1....

rojo wrote:

Ok. Given that I used to coach at nearby Cornell, I've made some calls and know have a lot of information to share.

Thank you. Is there any word on what the course layout will be? Any good inclines or is Buffalo flat as a pancake?

(for someodd reason, when I tried to post with your whole post quoted, I was getting a profanity error)

wtfrojo wrote:

Thank god you waited to contribute to the conversation until you found all this out. Oh wait, your post complaining about how this is a disgrace is still up on page 1....

hahaha the blow jos are idiots.

But all the 20 year old kids racing that have no say in this are still a bunch of snowflakes right? Good one.

wtfrojo wrote:

Thank god you waited to contribute to the conversation until you found all this out. Oh wait, your post complaining about how this is a disgrace is still up on page 1....

So you want me to erase history? I said in the first post that I was outraged they'd move the course to the road based on the photos I saw. I then asked if anyone in Buffalo could talk to me to tell me if it was dangerous. I then heard from those people and am saying it's the right call.

Not a big deal that my initial reaction at 11:30 at night was wrong and I corrected it less than 12 hours ago. It's ok to be wrong. I don't want to erase history. The sun will still set later on this evening.

A few interesting updates on the shoe front. I heard Yale ordered a ton of flats on amazon and they've been delivered. I heard Syracuse runners don't even own flats as they never work out in flats to lessen the risk of injury and thus are scrambling to find something.

step up wrote:

Arishole wrote:

My old coach texted me the same tonight. That's really bizarre.

Buffalo shouldn't be hosting this meet. Rotate it between Hammonasset in CT, VCP, and Franklin Park. No need for it to be in a snowtown in the middle of November.

It's not up to the NCAA - other coaches need to step up and volunteer to host the meet. Out of all the schools in CT, in the NYC area, and in Boston you'd think one coach is a hard enough worker to want to host the meet. But no, they are all lazy.

If Buffalo didn't volunteer to host the meet, there would be no race.

Makes sense that nobody put a bid in to host, but I think after this incident people will make sure.

The "Snowflakes Win Again" line is such condescending BS. Were the athletes protesting en masse? If not, calm down on the snowflake garbage.

There ARE some conditions that are too dangerous for racing. I can't comment on Buffalo bc I haven't seen the course. However, I was a coach at the D1 Mid Atlantic Regional the year the Eastern shore of MD got 11 inches of rain in the 36 hours prior to the day of the race. There were arguments going in circles at the coaches' meeting about whether the course was runnable or not. Some were suggesting they go out THAT NIGHT with floodlighting, find the least-affected 2k loop and run the race as repeated loops on that. That, to me, was the most asinine suggestion as sending hundreds of athletes over the same section would chew up the ground, making it exponentially worse after each loop.

They ended up holding the race on the original course, and everyone was more or less fine, though the Gator did get stuck and a Princeton athlete went down HARD (maybe Brian Leung?) very early in the race and I can't remember if he ended up finishing or not.

So while that wasn't as bad as it could've been, the combo of ice and fast athletes trying to maneuver and keep their footing could certainly be dangerous enough to warrant a change. Not a fan of the road alternative, but desperate times call for desperate measure. It's meant to be a race, not a survival contest.

Here’s a shot of the start at 11:30am Thursday

https://www.facebook.com/1442628385954174/posts/2357547057795631?d=n&sfns=mo

I heard that the folks who made the decision are actually all Republicans. So who's the snowflake now? Seriously, clean up your s#$%

rojo wrote:

...2) The course was schedule to be held on a golf course that is basically naturally very wet and almost a swamp if there is any rain. There were already huge puddles on the course before the snow which came on top of it. The problem is given it was 15 degrees last night there is a TON of ice and it's particularly bad at the start. One source told me that "if they ran the race on the xc course, you'd have 15 broken ankles in the first 200 meters."

If you wanted to run a high school meet at a park in town, no problem. The issue is this particular golf course and all of the ice...

I was at the 2017 D2 Regionals, held at the same place a week before D1's were held there. I can confirm that start area was basically foot deep to ankle deep water 2 years ago, after a lot of rain over the previous 10 days. I wouldn't be surprised if that tends to be the natural condition on that part of the golf course. I've played a lot of golf, and given the flatness of that particular course, I wouldn't be surprised if it tends to retain a ton of water. From what I saw there are a few areas that would naturally drain off into reedy places (I'm thinking there was a corner out around the 1k mark), but a lot of that course doesn't appear to have natural drainage.

Out of the 8 guys we brought that year 2 exacerbated injuries during the course preview the day before - 1 rolled an ankle in the slop around the start area and another slid in the muck around the finish area and tweaked a hamstring/quad that had been acting up the last month of the season. Some days just seem to have a black cloud over them.

Based on what I saw in 2017, I could totally see a lot of ice chunks forming as runners punch through the surface that has developed. Not fun. Personally, I'd probably still want to race it, but afterwards I'd probably think I was pretty dumb for doing so.

I guess the bottom line is that this might not be a good venue to plan to host Regionals at. Especially with the classic courses this region has access to - Franklin Park, Van Cortlandt, Bethpage - as well as some of the lesser known courses that would work like SUNY Albany, Hopkinton NH, Nashua NH, Jamesville Beach Park near Syracuse - seems like a bad move to keep going back to the golf course in Buffalo.

One other thing I've read a few times on this thread, wondering what y'all might be thinking, is the worry that racers are going to be beaten up for next weekend's Nationals and not able to preform their best by racing on a tough course or in tough conditions this weekend, especially with men moving up from 8k all season to 10k now. Those who think that, wondering if you would advocate for moving Regionals to 1 week earlier like D2 does, or advocate for dropping the distance to 8k? Why or why not on both of those, just curious.

Tim Horton's cup in the snow bank? Yep, that's Buffalo.

But two years ago at NYSPHSAA Championships, the course at Wayne HS was almost similar to this conditions...mud had frozen into footprints and in place, I remember rolling my ankle on one step and then the next into an icy puddle. I realize it would be dangerous maybe, but definitely could be possible to run on still. But I am interested to see some fast times from these roads....with all the Next%'s that will be Purchased.

Panorama of the Buffalo finish line is up on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/LeoneTiming/photos/a.1442699139280432/2357546964462307/?type=3&theater

wtfrojo wrote:

Thank god you waited to contribute to the conversation until you found all this out. Oh wait, your post complaining about how this is a disgrace is still up on page 1....

I ran this race in 2017, my senior year. Temp was well below freezing when the gun went off and windchill had the realfeel in the single digits or below 0 depending on whose weather site you used. Standing water on the course (it had rained the day before and for some reason none of it froze) was at least ankle deep. People were warming up for ~10 minutes in puffy winter coats and multiple layers on legs and then retreating back into the buses because it was too cold to stay outside. About five minutes before the race there was a mass exodus to the start line because literally everyone was on the buses trying to stay warm. I was a mid-d guy in college and was built a bit heavier than most of my teammates (5'11", 165) and couldn't get up to my normal 10k pace at any point during the race because I was sliding around in the mud too much despite 1/2 inch spikes. Fell in the first half mile and then again around mile four, by which point I was so far back in the pack that I was running through what was for all intents and purposes a mud pit as it was so chewed up from 150 other men as well as the entire women's race having gone through already. Some people did better than usual that day, including one of my teammates (from Buffalo), but most everyone I knew was several minutes off their PR and paid dearly for it. Hell, Justyn Knight ran 31:43. After the race, despite changing into completely dry clothes, warm socks, winter coat, etc., I couldn't feel my fingers or toes for hours - and when they finally regained feeling they felt like somebody hit them with a hammer because I had frostbite. I have continued to race since college and if you told me I had guaranteed prize money to the tune of $500 for running that race I wouldn't do it again.

Conditions were a little warmer in 2018 but it also snowed during both races.

All of the people talking about how "snowflakes" don't want to run on that course should go up there and run a 10k themselves and see how "tough" they are. You're real big men on letsrun hiding behind your keyboards and criticizing students who are risking bodily harm for what is, for most of them, going to be their last race of the season (or career). The only disgrace here is 1. that Buffalo was given several years of NCAA regionals on that shitty course to begin with, and 2. that you man-children who have no horse in the race are talking so much sh*t. I wonder where y'all would end up if YOU were in that 10k. I'm guessing in the last ten places.

rojo wrote:

Redd wrote:

I live in Buffalo, the issue is the snow is cleared but the ground below was still wet. With the freezing temperatures the ground turned into a jagged and icy mess with the footprints freezing. The reason it isn't safe is because of the quick onset of freezing temperatures that will make footing unsafe and dangerous on race day. These are the same conditions throughout the entire northeast with this cold snap. Freak storm leads to a freak outcome no matter where the race would have been held.

That's why I asked for a report from boots on the ground in Buffalo. If the course is like an ice rink - running on snow is not a problem - running on hard ice is next to impossible - then it was the right call.

Let's see how many of the top guys are wearing vaporflys.

Running on hard ice is perfectly feasable and not that dangerous if you wear spikes Rojo.... i am sure some bonehead was planning to run in certain flats....

what a bunch of pansies, i just ran there, no problem.

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Snowflake is such an outdated term on an outdated website, boomer.

Thedownlow wrote:

XC dad - that pic you put up of the course is not correct. Not very close, either.

It might not have been 100% anatomically correct, but at least he got a few ball hairs in there.