Mary Cain, her father, Ritz, Julian and others talk in-depth with Sports Illustrated includes Salazar's full statement

... she (Mary Cain) was told to lose weight and that by doing so she would be more successful.

“I was told I was too fat and ‘had the biggest butt on the starting line’,” Yoder Begley (25th in Beijing 2008 with 32:38.28, after two dopers were DQ'd)

I can't think it was just weight here. Yoder Begley was almost 9% behind Dibaba, and I don't think she was 9% overweight. Still, she conceivably could have been more successful by being best USA woman, by beating Goucher (30:55.16 in 9th after the doping DQs). That's within the weight loss regime contigency.

Also AFAIK, no one has factually disputed that she had the biggest butt on the starting line. It's how they feel about such facts that is dominating Twitter.

OTOH, Goucher is also 5'6" (says ESPN in 2016) but 125 lbs for a 20.2 BMI. If she had similarly lost down to the lowest healthy 18.5 level (non adolescent), that's 10 pounds or 8%.

^ Likely KG was not 125 pounds in 2008.

So, why did Salazar baby along Rupp through college and even as a pro but throw Cain completely to the wolves as soon as she walked in the door?

And Cain was running her legs off just to hit 4:0X times in the 1500 with a PR of only 4:04 from 2013. In 2015, Rowbury ran a 3:56 AR and Jenny Simpson was regularly breaking 4 and B Mart was running low 4s and sub 2 for 800. Did AlSal really think that a HS runner would be able to drop 4 seconds off what was already a staggering HS record PR of 4:04?

Indexer of Body Masses wrote:

The 2013 Cain data (5'6" 113 lbs) BMI is 18.2, which is just under the "normal" (18.5 to 24.9) for the normal population. You'd have to think that Elite Athletes involved in a weighty endeavor would typically be greater outliers than this. I can see why it would be an issue that needed to be addressed, after more basic things like the left arm flailing across the chest. Maybe if the NOP environment hadn't been so toxic she could have responded better.

And as she was only 17, her18.2 was still in the "healthy" range according to the boffins.

By the age of 18, the average BMI for a boy is 26.1, and for a girl, it's 24.6. The healthy range is 18.2 to 26.3 for boys and 17.6 to 26.1 for girls.

Surely this range varies from one individual to another. The fact that she was losing her period shows that it was a problem.

Also I thought it was interesting after all of the "where were the parents" comments that we actually have a statement here that the father told her NOT to take the birth control drugs.

Body weight is important , especially when we're talking elite athletes. Look at the GOAT himself, chubby Bekele v2016 runs 2:03:03 while lean looking Bekele v2019 runs 2:01:41 . If I were to train any pro athlete, even non endurance oriented, I would be concerned about their weight. Being an elite athlete requires sacrifices and dedication. Next time somebody is going to complain that their coach makes them run hard and sweat.

Paul The Runner wrote:

chubby Bekele v2016 runs 2:03:03 while lean looking Bekele v2019 runs 2:01:41 . .

*shoes were the difference

Paul The Runner wrote:

Body weight is important , especially when we're talking elite athletes. Look at the GOAT himself, chubby Bekele v2016 runs 2:03:03 while lean looking Bekele v2019 runs 2:01:41 . If I were to train any pro athlete, even non endurance oriented, I would be concerned about their weight. Being an elite athlete requires sacrifices and dedication. Next time somebody is going to complain that their coach makes them run hard and sweat.

Trying to boil this case down to merely Cain complaining about being asked to lose weight is being intellectually dishonest.

seasoned ranker wrote:

What is Ritz' vested interest? Levins'?

Attention. They want to stay in the running media spotlight even though pro careers are basically over (well Cam still has some left. Ritz is moving on with coaching now)

Paul The Runner wrote:

Body weight is important , especially when we're talking elite athletes. Look at the GOAT himself, chubby Bekele v2016 runs 2:03:03 while lean looking Bekele v2019 runs 2:01:41 . If I were to train any pro athlete, even non endurance oriented, I would be concerned about their weight. Being an elite athlete requires sacrifices and dedication. Next time somebody is going to complain that their coach makes them run hard and sweat.

That body weight is important is not the issue in this story. It's whether Salazar pushed Cain to lose an unhealthy amount of weight. The loss of her period and multiple stress fractures indicate that maybe he did.

Rupp Fan Boy wrote:

seasoned ranker wrote:

What is Ritz' vested interest? Levins'?

Attention. They want to stay in the running media spotlight even though pro careers are basically over (well Cam still has some left. Ritz is moving on with coaching now)

You think that the positives outweigh the negatives for their running careers by saying the things they have said? You are woefully naive.

I skimmed this thread and really could care less about NOP and Saladbar getting in trouble.....he likely deserves it.

The problem I have is that he is being crucified for needing his strength to weight ratios in a good range to perform faster. We dont martyr the NFL coaches that tell the linemen that they are too fat in the offseason.

What about the Zion Williams stuff going on in the NBA about his weight? What about wrestling from junior high through the olympics wjhere they are made to cut massive amounts of weight?

Saladbar may have been a drug cheat but to imply he is a bad coach for getting on his runners about weight is BS.

We'd have to compare to other women who maintained "healthy" elite athlete weights. Did they also become amenorrheic and have multiple stress fractures?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3702771/

^ +1.Surprisingly, eating disorders or having a high or low body mass index were not independently associated risk factors for stress fractures.

risk factors for stress fracture reported by the authors included older age at menarche, a maternal family history of osteoporosis or low bone mineral density, and the hours per week of participation in sports. Stress fractures were nearly twice as common in girls who participated in sports for 8 or more hours per week than in girls who engaged in sports for 4 or fewer hours per week.

Bob Schul Country wrote:

I skimmed this thread and really could care less about NOP and Saladbar getting in trouble.....he likely deserves it.

The problem I have is that he is being crucified for needing his strength to weight ratios in a good range to perform faster. We dont martyr the NFL coaches that tell the linemen that they are too fat in the offseason.

What about the Zion Williams stuff going on in the NBA about his weight? What about wrestling from junior high through the olympics wjhere they are made to cut massive amounts of weight?

Saladbar may have been a drug cheat but to imply he is a bad coach for getting on his runners about weight is BS.

Trying to boil this case down to merely Cain complaining about being asked to lose weight is being intellectually dishonest.

“In some sports, once you’ve reached an elite level, lack of a period is almost seen as a rite of passage,” says Dr. Naomi Brown.

https://www.chop.edu/news/connection-between-diet-periods-and-stress-fractures-female-athletes

Hysterectomy wrote:

Lauren Fleshman, wrote:

"As a female, it's a long road," says Fleshman. "When you're young, your hormonal profile is more like a guy, more testosterone and less estrogen. Your strength-to-weight ratio is incredible. But you can't fight nature forever. Very, very few women escape a few years of fighting their bodies. ..."

It's just basic biological development that being the "fastest girl" doesn't generally equate to being the "fastest woman". The weight goes up more than the strength. Hormones are powerful things.

Nike/Salazar should have known that young over-performing females are a potential risk later in career, and not been so hasty to sign Mary Cain up.

bears repeating wrote:

Bob Schul Country wrote:

I skimmed this thread and really could care less about NOP and Saladbar getting in trouble.....he likely deserves it.

The problem I have is that he is being crucified for needing his strength to weight ratios in a good range to perform faster. We dont martyr the NFL coaches that tell the linemen that they are too fat in the offseason.

What about the Zion Williams stuff going on in the NBA about his weight? What about wrestling from junior high through the olympics wjhere they are made to cut massive amounts of weight?

Saladbar may have been a drug cheat but to imply he is a bad coach for getting on his runners about weight is BS.

Trying to boil this case down to merely Cain complaining about being asked to lose weight is being intellectually dishonest.

Scholastic wrestling has changed to prevent excessive weight cutting. Yes, young men have also been victims to win at all cost coaches.

Words matter wrote:

How can we have a productive conversation about this when the word toxic is used in the headline. SI has obviously taken sides. Any rational conversation needs to acknowledge that weight is an important determinant of success in top levels of sport, and that elite training is very hard and sometimes unforgiving even if no malice is intended.

What production were you expecting from this thread?

We're talking about a coach who has been suspended for doping, has been panned by athletes who ran for him. Those are facts.

I don't know where yo get the idea that elite athletes are coached, or should be coached in an abusive manner. I was an elite athlete, in more than one elite groups. No coach was abusive, and had they been, they'd never have lasted in coaching.

Salazar saying he never meant to harm anyone is self serving. Just the weigh ins should have been obvious to him.

And yes they could have left, however they likely had a Nike handcuff on them. "put up with AS or give the money back." Paying an athlete does not give you the right to be an a hole. Nike has a lot of explaining to do.

"Other people's problems are worse so shut up about your problems"