Mary Cain, her father, Ritz, Julian and others talk in-depth with Sports Illustrated includes Salazar's full statement

Indexer of Body Masses wrote:

The 2013 Cain data (5'6" 113 lbs) BMI is 18.2, which is just under the "normal" (18.5 to 24.9) for the normal population. You'd have to think that Elite Athletes involved in a weighty endeavor would typically be greater outliers than this. I can see why it would be an issue that needed to be addressed, after more basic things like the left arm flailing across the chest. Maybe if the NOP environment hadn't been so toxic she could have responded better.

And as she was only 17, her18.2 was still in the "healthy" range according to the boffins.

By the age of 18, the average BMI for a boy is 26.1, and for a girl, it's 24.6. The healthy range is 18.2 to 26.3 for boys and 17.6 to 26.1 for girls.

Doing the math, this means Cain could have lost 4 more pounds down to 109 (3.5%), and still been at 17.6, and healthy for a 18yo.

Then, extrapolating this 3.5% weight loss to performance, her 4:07 10th place in 2013 could easily have been a victory in 1500m women's worlds. Now I can see why Salazar was so obsessed with weight!

Let’s not forget Alberto is a medical doctor and pharmacist as well!

It's a Problem wrote:

Alberto Salazar wrote:

“Because runner weight is inherently tied to performance for elite runners, I saw it as part of my job as an endurance sport coach to help the team’s runners understand the impact weight has on performance,” Salazar wrote to SI. “I had a lot of frank discussions about weight with all of my athletes—both women and men."

Salazar's frank discussions are in great contrast to Charles Cain's claim that you can't talk to kids about this.

If you can't talk to them about it, then who will??

There isn't a 17/18 year old girl that wouldn't know that she is bigger than her peers. She didn't need to be talked to, much less try to push her into an eating disorder or shamed or pushed to the point of depression and cutting herself.

Lard Arse. wrote:

Le Tour de Shore wrote:

Something else here, I grew up around the same time as Alberto and we had ww2 vets and Korean vet types as coaches growing up. It was nothing for a coach to call you a "lard a#&" or something like that.

Some were hard guys and some were good guys but the world has changed dramatically and you can't have a hint of that stuff.

Percy Cerutty is spinning in his grave.

Read about Bowerman and tell me he could coach today.

I prefer Cerutty's way but that was not reality in the world we grew up in.

At the end of the day, who are you going to stand with: the increasing number of former NOP runners and coaches all saying the same thing, or Salazar (drug cheat) and Nike?

Lauren Fleshman, wrote:

"As a female, it's a long road," says Fleshman. "When you're young, your hormonal profile is more like a guy, more testosterone and less estrogen. Your strength-to-weight ratio is incredible. But you can't fight nature forever. Very, very few women escape a few years of fighting their bodies. ..."

It's just basic biological development that being the "fastest girl" doesn't generally equate to being the "fastest woman". The weight goes up more than the strength. Hormones are powerful things.

Coaches everywhere are giving advice on sports psychology, nutrition, physiology, etc without certifications or PHDs. Should they refrain from doing so?

This is why Salazar had such pleasant relations with Lance.

Bicyclists know how important weight is, and can take being talked to directly about it.

Carbon + Fiber wrote:

This is why Salazar had such pleasant relations with Lance.

Bicyclists know how important weight is, and can take being talked to directly about it.

Both also realized how important L-Carinitine injections and EPO are for athletic performance. Look how well that went for them..

Hysterectomy wrote:

...

I'm surprised Salazar didn't refer the female athletes to Javaid Perwaiz.

Carbon + Fiber wrote:

This is why Salazar had such pleasant relations with Lance.

Bicyclists know how important weight is, and can take being talked to directly about it.

Bone density doesn't matter as much to cyclist.

Hateraid wrote:

It's a Problem wrote:

Salazar's frank discussions are in great contrast to Charles Cain's claim that you can't talk to kids about this.

If you can't talk to them about it, then who will??

There isn't a 17/18 year old girl that wouldn't know that she is bigger than her peers. She didn't need to be talked to, much less try to push her into an eating disorder or shamed or pushed to the point of depression and cutting herself.

True, anyone who works with young girls should understand this.

PeanutButterJelly wrote:

At the end of the day, who are you going to stand with: the increasing number of former NOP runners and coaches all saying the same thing, or Salazar (drug cheat) and Nike?

Going to stand with the truth which is Salazar isn't exactly a drug cheat even if the conviction is held up and ex NOP runners have vested interests in embellishing stories.

not only does all this news expose salazar is a massive pr!ck, but it also shows him to be a massive dingdong with absolutely no clue on managing athlete's health. his best effort at helping mary cain reach better form was to shame her and encourage use of cheap drugs (fyi alberto, birth control pills generally cause weight gain, not loss).

as a point of contrast, look at romelu lukaku at inter milan last summer. he showed up over overweight, worked with inter's medical staff to develop a nutrition and weight plan, and he safely slimmed down and reached his goal weight in a healthy manner. it really shows a contrast in two sports where inter understand the importance of their asset and worked with him to get him in top shape, while alsal completely misunderstood and ruined mary.

Indexer of Body Masses wrote:

The 2013 Cain data (5'6" 113 lbs) BMI is 18.2, which is just under the "normal" (18.5 to 24.9) for the normal population. You'd have to think that Elite Athletes involved in a weighty endeavor would typically be greater outliers than this. I can see why it would be an issue that needed to be addressed, after more basic things like the left arm flailing across the chest. Maybe if the NOP environment hadn't been so toxic she could have responded better.

And as she was only 17, her18.2 was still in the "healthy" range according to the boffins.

By the age of 18, the average BMI for a boy is 26.1, and for a girl, it's 24.6. The healthy range is 18.2 to 26.3 for boys and 17.6 to 26.1 for girls.

There we go again with the toxic term. Like this is a Britney Spears concert.

Oh wait, running doesn't follow simple mathematical formulae wrote:

Doing the math, this means Cain could have lost 4 more pounds down to 109 (3.5%), and still been at 17.6, and healthy for a 18yo.

Then, extrapolating this 3.5% weight loss to performance, her 4:07 10th place in 2013 could easily have been a victory in 1500m women's worlds. Now I can see why Salazar was so obsessed with weight!

I agree, minimizing weight while staying within the "healthy" BMI range is an obvious method of marginal gains in elite performance. Again using the cycling analogy, having extra weight would be akin to having a hematocrit much below 50%. You're leaving something on the table.

Of/c there's also a difference between "training weight" (could be higher) and "competition weight" (as low as possible).

Stand with truth wrote:

PeanutButterJelly wrote:

At the end of the day, who are you going to stand with: the increasing number of former NOP runners and coaches all saying the same thing, or Salazar (drug cheat) and Nike?

Going to stand with the truth which is Salazar isn't exactly a drug cheat even if the conviction is held up and ex NOP runners have vested interests in embellishing stories.

What is Ritz' vested interest? Levins'?

ventolin ^4 wrote:

as a point of contrast, look at romelu lukaku at inter milan last summer. he showed up over overweight, worked with inter's medical staff to develop a nutrition and weight plan, and he safely slimmed down and reached his goal weight in a healthy manner. it really shows a contrast in two sports where inter understand the importance of their asset and worked with him to get him in top shape, while alsal completely misunderstood and ruined mary.

It's not really "understanding" but incentives:

Soccer clubs have a Vested Interest in ensuring the health of their purchases. Not so with running "assets"...

Pushing an already very thin athlete to further lose weight is both dangerous and stupid. Ensuring said athlete is well nourished, hydrated, and rested is key. The first stress fracture should have been evidence enough to Cain, her parents and the coach that the dynamic was suboptimal. Everyone looked past major warning signs- they're all guilty of that. The biggest transgression, however, was the coach and trainer ignoring her desperate plea for help when she revealed to them her self cutting. That is unforgivable.