Current Goal 38 Minute 10k. Ultimate goal: Sub-3 Hour Marathon

Your 18:11 5K versus 41 minute 10K implies you severely lack endurance.

Would start with a 6 week base building phase, build up to 65 miles a week, then start adding long tempo runs (6 miles).

To sub 3, you need at least:

- 1:25 half

- 38:20 10K

Gluck

Those goal times seem to agree with what I'd see in Jack Daniels' Vdot predictor or similar calculators, but I think they assume a good bit of distance training- if you haven't been running that long, you might be able to hit the 5K or 10K times while struggling to run a 3:00 marathon. A lot of high school kids can run sub 18:00 5K's but you couldn't throw them straight into a marathon and expect them to do well.

You've got enough speed already based on your 5K time, but to build your endurance for 10K / half marathon / marathon races I'd recommend focusing on doing some tempo runs and some marathon pace segments in your long runs.

How did your 41:05 race feel- did you start out too fast and fade? One trick I like is after an easy run the day before a 5K or 10k race to run 2x 800's at my goal pace- don't try to jump straight to 38:00 in your next 10K, but set a goal of 40:00. If you're ready for that, running a couple 800's at 3:12 should feel like you're pushing, but not really straining. (It'll probably feel easier than the 41:05 if that was a case of going hard and then dying.) Then try to remember what that felt like the next day when the gun goes off and don't let yourself get pulled along too fast in the first mile.

Dang that's the first time I've ever been told that I lack endurance. You think I can build to 65 miles in 6 weeks? I had to take a week recovery for my calf because I overdid the distance. What training plan do you suggest I follow to be able to achieve this?

I can understand that. A 6:49 pace feels relatively relaxed for me, I feel like i just need to get the distance itself down. I will definitely try to beat 40 minutes for the 10k before 38 minutes. I will try the training plan that you suggested, thank you.

Xosscountry wrote:

I can understand that. A 6:49 pace feels relatively relaxed for me, I feel like i just need to get the distance itself down. I will definitely try to beat 40 minutes for the 10k before 38 minutes. I will try the training plan that you suggested, thank you.

That is literally just another way of saying you have poor endurance. It's not meant to be a put down. It's just a reality with the marathon. Very few people seem to hit the marathon time that their 5/10k times predict in the calculators. For most of us, it comes down to lack of miles.

Can you built to 65 mpw like the other poster said? Probably. In 6 weeks? I don't know. The way it was phrased, build to 65 and then start doing long tempos suggests to do it in all easy miles. I agree with that. It's a lot easier to pile the miles on when you're just cruising every day and not hammering workouts. If you haven't done that in the past with bigger miles, this would be a great time to test it out. Getting 6 weeks of training over 50mpw and getting up into the 60s might be enough on it's own to see you breaking 38 minutes in the 10k. Seriously.

If you go that route, though, I don't recommend doing no fast running in that time. Just no workouts. There is a difference. On days that feel really good, let the pace drop naturally and turn it into a progression run. This might happen once or twice a week, maybe more, but maybe some weeks it doesn't happen. That's fine, just keep going.

So your saying that i can break 38 minutes only doing long distance and doing no speed work? Wouldn't your body get locked into that gear of going at a slow pace? I don't see how practicing at a slow pace will make me faster, please explain further.

Xosscountry wrote:

So your saying that i can break 38 minutes only doing long distance and doing no speed work? Wouldn't your body get locked into that gear of going at a slow pace? I don't see how practicing at a slow pace will make me faster, please explain further.

Read it again. I didn't say to practice running at a slow pace the whole time.

And yes, I think 60 mpw of longer runs and progression runs will easily see you drop below 38 minutes. Depending on the rest of your training history, a few months of that could have you below 37 minutes. Maybe even faster.

Update: I just ran a 39:24 10k. A great improvement from my previous workout. I'm getting around 40 miles a week with a speed workout. I'm happy to see progress.

Awesome time. Great size. Look thick. Solid. Tight. Keep us all posted on your continued progress with any new progress pics or vid clips. Show us what you got man. Wanna see how freakn' huge, solid, thick and tight you can get. Thanks for the motivation."

Update: I ran the 3M Half Marathon in 1:25 flat, less then a month away till my marathon. I hadn't ran in the last 3 weeks before this because of the cartilage in my knees were messed up, and still is.

Different runners perform better at various distances. My good friend was 45 sec and 90+ secs behind me in the 5K/10k but would finish 3-4,minutes ahead of me in the marathon. I would be surprised if you could go sub 3 without going sub 38 in the 10k and sub 1:24:00 in the half

"I would be surprised if you could go sub 3 without going sub 38 in the 10k and sub 1:24:00 in the half"

This is exactly my experience. 39 flat in 10k and 1:24:2x in the half and best I have managed is 3:03 on a net downhill course. The calculators definitely are a decent guide, but everyone is different based on how long they've been running, weight, etc.

Xosscountry wrote:

Update: I ran the 3M Half Marathon in 1:25 flat, less then a month away till my marathon. I hadn't ran in the last 3 weeks before this because of the cartilage in my knees were messed up, and still is.

Cancel your marathon plans and reschedule. There's a big difference between a HM and a marathon, and you absolutely do not want to run a marathon with messed up knees. There will be plenty of chances to break 3:00 after this - unless you screw up your knees permanently.

my 2c wrote:

Xosscountry wrote:

Update: I ran the 3M Half Marathon in 1:25 flat, less then a month away till my marathon. I hadn't ran in the last 3 weeks before this because of the cartilage in my knees were messed up, and still is.

Cancel your marathon plans and reschedule. There's a big difference between a HM and a marathon, and you absolutely do not want to run a marathon with messed up knees. There will be plenty of chances to break 3:00 after this - unless you screw up your knees permanently.

Thanks for the updates, and congrats on the two PRs in the last couple of months. But I agree, consider skipping that marathon. If you start resting and recovering now, you'll be much, much closer to training and hitting your sub-3 goal than you will be if you push through injury these next few weeks and cap that off with a marathon.

It's a bummer to not hit your long term goal and have to restructure things. But you should definitely feel good about improving your 10k and HM times. Those are really good signs. Especially since that HM time is better than the 10k time, so you were improving nicely. Don't get greedy. Greedy can get you laid up to close to a year or more. I've been there.

I'll be shooting for sub-3 in Miami in three weeks based on a PR of 39:29 in the 10K and 1:30 in a half. I know that is contradictory to all pace calculators and sounds insane.

In 2019, I ran a 3:03:09 based on a PR of 41: 55 in the 10K and a 1:35 half. That marathon time was on the Atlanta hills (as were all my PR times), and so I'm hoping I can drop 3 mins on the flat Miami course.

I'm a relatively new runner and have a lot to learn about pacing, but thus far race calculators are useful but not absolutely accurate in translating times. Trust your training, trust your body and good luck!

When I was 37 I had PRs of mile- 5:14 5K- 18:03 8K- 29:48 10K - 37:42 15K - 58:27 and half - 1:26:40

These were all run with in ~ 8 months of a sub-3 marathon attempt. I ran 2:57-mid (flat, fast course) in that attempt—this was my third marathon (prior PR was 3:00:1X). The weather was perfect (may be a little too sunny but otherwise perfect) on race day for the sub-3.

So, the calculators are close but not perfect. This is especially true of the whole “you need to run a sub-1:25 half” thing. I never had an opportunity to run a fresh half which probably explains the weak PR.

Only you know your situation and the conditions under which your PRs were run. I think you're close. If you don’t get the sub 3 now and keep training like you have been you’ll likely get it in the next few attempts.

my 2c wrote:

Xosscountry wrote:

Update: I ran the 3M Half Marathon in 1:25 flat, less then a month away till my marathon. I hadn't ran in the last 3 weeks before this because of the cartilage in my knees were messed up, and still is.

Cancel your marathon plans and reschedule. There's a big difference between a HM and a marathon, and you absolutely do not want to run a marathon with messed up knees. There will be plenty of chances to break 3:00 after this - unless you screw up your knees permanently.

+1

You haven’t run in 3 weeks? Even if your knees are feeling well I would pick another Marathon

I appreciate all of you looking out for my knee but I have been training for this specific race since mid September, I'm not going to flake out less then a month out from the race. To help my knee situation I have been drinking gelatin everyday to recover the cartilage. If anyone has any ideas on recovering cartilage in knees besides rest, Id love to hear it.

I predict...a DNF with some post race Jello shots.