Would you define Hicham El G as a sitter?
Would you define Hicham El G as a sitter?
Um, no. He was a long driver like Elliott and Cram.
Ggggg wrote:
Would you define Hicham El G as a sitter?
No, he was a last 800 leader.
You misspelled doper.
Ggggg wrote:
Would you define Hicham El G as a sitter?
Depends on the event.
In the 1500, he was slow-twitch. He could not outsprint someone with a lot of speed, like Noah Ngeny on the home straight. Therefore, he tried to win races by doing a very long kick, that is taking everything out of the 800/1500 guys with the great sprint speed at the end so they don't have much left. The race where he lost was exactly where everything went wrong - the people who were supposed to keep the pace fast and pace him failed to do so, he had to take lead early but Ngeny was able to hang in there and then easily unleash his superior speed at the end and "steal" his Olympic gold medal.
In the 5000, suddenly he was the guy with the great speed (fast-twitch). He would just let Bekele, Shaheen, Kipchoge and others do the work, and then at the end easily win it. The 5k's he lost was when the pace was so crazy that he just had absolutely nothing left at the end (~12:50, lost to Kipchoge and then again to Shaheen), but he won in 2004 Gold in the Olympics by just destroying everyone at the end in a super slow race (13:14 winning time).
Here you can see how Guerrouj won the 5000m in 2004 Olympic final - he destroyed both Kipchoge and Bekele at the last ~150m:
https://youtu.be/cEht_JTLtIk?t=202LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Ggggg wrote:
Would you define Hicham El G as a sitter?
Depends on the event.
In the 1500, he was slow-twitch. He could not outsprint someone with a lot of speed, like Noah Ngeny on the home straight. Therefore, he tried to win races by doing a very long kick, that is taking everything out of the 800/1500 guys with the great sprint speed at the end so they don't have much left. The race where he lost was exactly where everything went wrong - the people who were supposed to keep the pace fast and pace him failed to do so, he had to take lead early but Ngeny was able to hang in there and then easily unleash his superior speed at the end and "steal" his Olympic gold medal.
In the 5000, suddenly he was the guy with the great speed (fast-twitch). He would just let Bekele, Shaheen, Kipchoge and others do the work, and then at the end easily win it. The 5k's he lost was when the pace was so crazy that he just had absolutely nothing left at the end (~12:50, lost to Kipchoge and then again to Shaheen), but he won in 2004 Gold in the Olympics by just destroying everyone at the end in a super slow race (13:14 winning time).
Here you can see how Guerrouj won the 5000m in 2004 Olympic final - he destroyed both Kipchoge and Bekele at the last ~150m:
https://youtu.be/cEht_JTLtIk?t=202
Spot on analysis, wrong race though.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Ggggg wrote:
Would you define Hicham El G as a sitter?
Depends on the event.
In the 1500, he was slow-twitch. He could not outsprint someone with a lot of speed, like Noah Ngeny on the home straight. Therefore, he tried to win races by doing a very long kick, that is taking everything out of the 800/1500 guys with the great sprint speed at the end so they don't have much left. The race where he lost was exactly where everything went wrong - the people who were supposed to keep the pace fast and pace him failed to do so, he had to take lead early but Ngeny was able to hang in there and then easily unleash his superior speed at the end and "steal" his Olympic gold medal.
In the 5000, suddenly he was the guy with the great speed (fast-twitch). He would just let Bekele, Shaheen, Kipchoge and others do the work, and then at the end easily win it. The 5k's he lost was when the pace was so crazy that he just had absolutely nothing left at the end (~12:50, lost to Kipchoge and then again to Shaheen), but he won in 2004 Gold in the Olympics by just destroying everyone at the end in a super slow race (13:14 winning time).
Here you can see how Guerrouj won the 5000m in 2004 Olympic final - he destroyed both Kipchoge and Bekele at the last ~150m:
https://youtu.be/cEht_JTLtIk?t=202
He couldn't have have run the sprints, but in no way was he a slow-twitch runner. Slow-twitch guys do not run 3:43. Most people can't run even one lap at that pace.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
He couldn't have have run the sprints, but in no way was he a slow-twitch runner. Slow-twitch guys do not run 3:43. Most people can't run even one lap at that pace.
I said "slow-twitch in terms of event". Talent matters a lot in running, so we can only compare him to elites. Elite milers have no problem running 3:43 pace for a single lap.
In the 800, his PR was 1:47. Yes, he didn't race it often, but it was also clear his 400 speed and 800m time was not great. He could have got it down a bit, but with his 400 speed he would have never been able to drop down a 1:43 that some very fast-twitch milers can.
Fast-twitch 1500/milers are people with 47s or lower FAT 400m speed, or 1:43 800m. Think of Ngeny, Coe, Webb, or currently Lewandowski and Makhloufi. They have such a high % of fast-twitch muscles for 1500/milers, that they could never break 13 in the 5k. Also, they were pretty much guaranteed to win any slow 1500/mile race. Ingebrigtsen has yet to find a consistent way to beat Lewandowski, Ingebrigtsen simply isn't a 1:43 guy despite having phenomenal 1500 and 5k times.
Btw, for overall percentage of muscles, none of them is anything close to a real sprinter. A sprinter might have 70% FT muscles in his legs, these guys only got around 40-50%, which is around average for humans. Real slow-twitch runners (often marathoners, ultra-runners, for example Carlos Lopes and Salazar) only got 10% FT, but they are just as rare as true sprinters.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
He couldn't have have run the sprints, but in no way was he a slow-twitch runner. Slow-twitch guys do not run 3:43. Most people can't run even one lap at that pace.
I said "slow-twitch in terms of event". Talent matters a lot in running, so we can only compare him to elites. Elite milers have no problem running 3:43 pace for a single lap.
In the 800, his PR was 1:47. Yes, he didn't race it often, but it was also clear his 400 speed and 800m time was not great. He could have got it down a bit, but with his 400 speed he would have never been able to drop down a 1:43 that some very fast-twitch milers can.
Fast-twitch 1500/milers are people with 47s or lower FAT 400m speed, or 1:43 800m. Think of Ngeny, Coe, Webb, or currently Lewandowski and Makhloufi. They have such a high % of fast-twitch muscles for 1500/milers, that they could never break 13 in the 5k. Also, they were pretty much guaranteed to win any slow 1500/mile race. Ingebrigtsen has yet to find a consistent way to beat Lewandowski, Ingebrigtsen simply isn't a 1:43 guy despite having phenomenal 1500 and 5k times.
Btw, for overall percentage of muscles, none of them is anything close to a real sprinter. A sprinter might have 70% FT muscles in his legs, these guys only got around 40-50%, which is around average for humans. Real slow-twitch runners (often marathoners, ultra-runners, for example Carlos Lopes and Salazar) only got 10% FT, but they are just as rare as true sprinters.
You're comparing him to a fraction of a percent of 1500 runners. That's like saying a 44 second 400 guy is slow-twitch in the 100 because he can run only 10.2.
Slow-twitch and El G do not belong in the same sentence.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
You're comparing him to a fraction of a percent of 1500 runners. That's like saying a 44 second 400 guy is slow-twitch in the 100 because he can run only 10.2.
Slow-twitch and El G do not belong in the same sentence.
As I said, we have to look at the event when classifying someone as slow-twitch or fast-twitch for an event. Running fast times in an event does not mean someone has a lot of fast-twitch fibers.
Compare two talented runners - Rudisha and El Guerrouj. Who has more FT fibers? Clear.
Who would win a 1:55 800m race? Both can run this time easily. But the runner with more FT fibers would win 100% of time.
Who would win a mile race with finishing time of 4:30 min of them? Now we can't say it clearly anymore. If it's 4:30 pace until the last 100m, Rudisha will smoke El G. But what if the race starts slow, and El Guerrouj runs the last 800m in 1:50? Can Rudisha still do that after running the first two laps at a solid pace that cause him some fatigue?
Yes, in an event like a mile, there are different runner profiles. Some might be balanced milers - probably the majority. Some are clear 800/1500 guys, like the ones I listed above (Ngeny, Coe, Webb, Makhloufi, Lewandowski, etc). These have MORE FT% fibers in the 1500 than any others, but also will not be as good in the 5k. Then there are slow-twitch runners in the mile - clear strength-based guys. Think about Ingebrigtsen, Bekele, Gebrselassie, etc.
The question is - to which group does El Guerrouj belong IN the 1500/mile? Definitely not the 800/1500. That leaves either balanced, or 1500/3000+. Imo he could fit into either of these groups. In a 5k, he would definitely be fast-twitch.
But in the 1500/mile, we have to be careful because he was just more talented and running faster than others. Unfortunately only two other runners ever ran 3:26, Kiprop who was definitely more FT (and tested positive), and Lagat. Compared to El G, Lagat was considerably worse in the 3k, and a bit worse in the 5k. For mile races, Ngeny ran 3:43 and Morceli 3:44. Both were more fast-twitch than El Guerruoj (better speed/800 ability), and slower in the 3k and 5k.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
He couldn't have have run the sprints, but in no way was he a slow-twitch runner. Slow-twitch guys do not run 3:43. Most people can't run even one lap at that pace.
I said "slow-twitch in terms of event". Talent matters a lot in running, so we can only compare him to elites. Elite milers have no problem running 3:43 pace for a single lap.
In the 800, his PR was 1:47. Yes, he didn't race it often, but it was also clear his 400 speed and 800m time was not great. He could have got it down a bit, but with his 400 speed he would have never been able to drop down a 1:43 that some very fast-twitch milers can.
Fast-twitch 1500/milers are people with 47s or lower FAT 400m speed, or 1:43 800m. Think of Ngeny, Coe, Webb, or currently Lewandowski and Makhloufi. They have such a high % of fast-twitch muscles for 1500/milers, that they could never break 13 in the 5k. Also, they were pretty much guaranteed to win any slow 1500/mile race. Ingebrigtsen has yet to find a consistent way to beat Lewandowski, Ingebrigtsen simply isn't a 1:43 guy despite having phenomenal 1500 and 5k times.
Btw, for overall percentage of muscles, none of them is anything close to a real sprinter. A sprinter might have 70% FT muscles in his legs, these guys only got around 40-50%, which is around average for humans. Real slow-twitch runners (often marathoners, ultra-runners, for example Carlos Lopes and Salazar) only got 10% FT, but they are just as rare as true sprinters.
The fact he didn't race 800 (or 1,000) was indication to me of his use of PED"s. His 800 time would have been waayyy slow compared to his mile, and a red flag as to his use of PED"s. People would have asked how can he be so slow at 800 and so fast at mile.
Heck, he didn't even run 800's as tune-ups before major champs.
Neta wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Depends on the event.
In the 1500, he was slow-twitch. He could not outsprint someone with a lot of speed, like Noah Ngeny on the home straight. Therefore, he tried to win races by doing a very long kick, that is taking everything out of the 800/1500 guys with the great sprint speed at the end so they don't have much left. The race where he lost was exactly where everything went wrong - the people who were supposed to keep the pace fast and pace him failed to do so, he had to take lead early but Ngeny was able to hang in there and then easily unleash his superior speed at the end and "steal" his Olympic gold medal.
In the 5000, suddenly he was the guy with the great speed (fast-twitch). He would just let Bekele, Shaheen, Kipchoge and others do the work, and then at the end easily win it. The 5k's he lost was when the pace was so crazy that he just had absolutely nothing left at the end (~12:50, lost to Kipchoge and then again to Shaheen), but he won in 2004 Gold in the Olympics by just destroying everyone at the end in a super slow race (13:14 winning time).
Here you can see how Guerrouj won the 5000m in 2004 Olympic final - he destroyed both Kipchoge and Bekele at the last ~150m:
https://youtu.be/cEht_JTLtIk?t=202Spot on analysis, wrong race though.
Look again. Video shows both the 1500m and 5000m from Athens.
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