Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 11/3/19 (NYC Marathon Edition)

What's going on ;_;. It really is pouring

Glad to hear nothing is broken and really glad you're okay! First the tree and now this... really bad stroke of luck. Drivers are terrifying.

Wishing you a quick bounce back, and positive dealings with any followup from the event!!

Darkwave, sorry about your accident, but I’m glad you’re generally okay.

Smoove wrote:

Darkwave, sorry about your accident, but I’m glad you’re generally okay.

Same. Really hope for some quick healing and one of these backup marathons allows you to hit your goals. I was a millisecond from getting drilled by a red-light-running car on a run this spring, drivers are crazy. And OR that sucks with the hamstring. Really hoping that thing clears up like I've seen happen for others.

So I attacked this one today. Planned to do 4 x 2mi with a lap jog recovery in 2 mins. I decided to start conservatively near perceived HMP and see how it goes. Didn't go well ...

First 2 mi rep was on tgt pace (5'51); next one started fine but I slowed down in the second part considerably to avg 5'56; third rep was a disaster: I was @ 6'00 and drifting away so I cut it short at 1mi, took 2 min walking break and finished with 2 x 1 mi @ 5'49/ 50 r=200m < 60". So total of 7mi avg 5'54.

My previous workouts were

-7d: 5 x 1.5mi r=300m < 90" @ 5'47 / 51 / 55 / 51 / 59 --> avg 5'52

-14d: 7 x 1mi r=200m < 60" @ 5'48 / 41 / 48 / 49 / 50 / 49 / 48 --> avg 5'48

So it looks like I need to build better stamina for long reps, but not sure what is the best way to approach the task? Shall I try to do more rest? Or slow down and build pace gradually? Maybe start with 2 x 1 + 2 x 2 + 2 x 1 and progress this way ...

What I find strange, is that I didn't feel pain and breathing was fine; somehow I just loose concentration and drift out of pace. When I try to push more nothing seems to happen; it looks like I need to be at 8k effort to keep in touch. But then there are might be 4 more miles to go ...

Another question I'm asking myself is about adaptations window:

let's say my race day 10k pace is about 5'30, Threshold ~ 5'40 and HMP ~ 5'45.

so proper LT/Threshold workout for me would be 4 x 2mi @ 5'40 r=400m < 2'

let's say I'm doing same workout in depleted state (tired, depleted glycogen stores etc.) --> I'd definitely won't be able to hold 5'40 pace

Do I get same adaptations doing these intervals @ 5'50-55 pace in depleted state as if I were hitting 5'40 in rested state?

Does same concept applies to CV reps? VO2Max work? Or you do need to hit proper pace to get desired adaptations?

Holy smokes, what is going on today??? Darkwave, I'm glad you are okay. You are really determined to bounce back fast. Kudos to you for that!

I've had enough what-the-hell cross-walk close calls where I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that my 2nd favorite hobby will eventually end by being smoked by a car.

My most recent scare was at 5:00 AM with virtually no traffic, running in the cross walk below the Interstate... Wearing bright flashy armbands.... White Walking Man sign lit up.... And someone runs a Red Left Arrow and nearly smokes me from my blind side... If it hadn't been from him breaking the dead silence of the night I may not have reacted just-in-time.

It occurred to me at that hour, that guy probably runs that red light every single morning because there is no one there at that hour and he simply doesn't care. Despite taking every precaution I can (I have a list of safety measures that I take that is a mile long), the only reason I wasn't hit there was blind luck.

Take care of yourselves, everyone!

darkwave - I am so sorry. But I’m glad you are generally okay, like Smoove said. How scary! I am praying that the Running Gods look kindly upon you and allow you to demonstrate your racing fitness in the coming weeks.

OR - one day at a time, just like one mile at a time.

Carpe Diem, folks. Every day is a gift.

RunnerSam, thanks for the excellent recommendations for structuring the next few weeks.

Stone and Gordon, I really appreciate the comments--and hearing how far you've come is indeed great motivation (Gordon, you weren't kidding about the parallels to my times). In reality, I'm actually pretty pumped about where my training is at compared to this time last year, training for the same race. I'm running almost everyday, more miles per week than ever before, and doing consistent speedwork. To go on the record, my ultimate goal is to BQ; I understand this is (best case) going to take a few years but I am optimistic that if I continue to put in the work, improvement will come.

darkwave - Nothing but the best to you, and glad you are still with us...wow, a truck... I hope I will be okay to join you at Richmond. Be well, my friend.

hoggy jobber wrote:

RunnerSam, thanks for the excellent recommendations for structuring the next few weeks.

Stone and Gordon, I really appreciate the comments--and hearing how far you've come is indeed great motivation (Gordon, you weren't kidding about the parallels to my times). In reality, I'm actually pretty pumped about where my training is at compared to this time last year, training for the same race. I'm running almost everyday, more miles per week than ever before, and doing consistent speedwork. To go on the record, my ultimate goal is to BQ; I understand this is (best case) going to take a few years but I am optimistic that if I continue to put in the work, improvement will come.

My progression:

2008 - started running again after a 10 year layoff. Weighed almost 200 lbs. on my 30th birthday.

Spring 2008 - 1:33 high HM, 3:43 M on 20-25 miles a week (I admittedly knew nothing then).

Fall 2008 - 1:29 high HM, 3:12 M on 30-40 miles a week.

Kept losing weight and running 30-50 miles a week for the next 3 years. Highlight was 2:59:50 in 2011.

2013 - 2:55 high, 1:19:57 following Hanson’s inspired plans (50-70 miles a week).

2015 - 2:49 low (60-80 miles a week).

Returned to running late 2017 and progressed to where I am now.

Consistency and time. Hammer the stone...

outsiderunner wrote:

darkwave - Nothing but the best to you, and glad you are still with us...wow, a truck... I hope I will be okay to join you at Richmond. Be well, my friend.

+1

angryjohnny wrote:

outsiderunner wrote:

darkwave - Nothing but the best to you, and glad you are still with us...wow, a truck... I hope I will be okay to join you at Richmond. Be well, my friend.

+1

Add my +1.

Not the news I wanted to see and hope you’re both able to run a good fall marathon.

runrincerepeat wrote:

Hang in there DW ... I hope you went " Full RRR" on the vehicle and driver after it happend.

Thanks all for the good wishes - hope to participate more fully in the thread the next few days, and to track this weekend.

RRR, I unleashed a mighty wave of profanity at him. I like to think you would have been proud.

What the hell? I go to sleep for 8 measly hours...

OR: As RRR said, maybe it'll loosen up. Stay optimistic...a good mental attitude helps healing.

darkwave: Geeeez. I was wincing just thinking about it. Glad there are no broken bones, but broken plans hurt too. And next time someone says after a rough night, "I feel like I was hit by a truck!" I'd say you've got the moral high ground. Stay tough.

angryjohnny wrote:

Here’s a more methodical approach that I’ve used in the past when I’ve written out my plan in advance. This is mostly based on the 2nd edition of Jack Daniels Running Formula. I like to build the workouts in a bit more linear fashion than Daniels suggests.

https://imgur.com/gallery/LWNNTPj

AJ,

It appears the training for your more recent block is more modest than the excel picture, but you ran quicker this time around, correct? Do you think there is anything to not extending yourself so much in training?

That's it! You guys convinced me. No running tonight. Seriously though, OR and Darkwave I hope you both have a speedy recovery.

Interesting to see the progressions. It is really cool to see the gains that people have made.

I'll share mine.

The short version

2015 - 5k 23min, 20k 1:43, 10mi 1:17

2016 - HM 1:40, Marathon 3:46, Marathon(BQ attempt) 3:29 (BQ - 48sec) - No serious training, just a some easy running 30-45mpw.

2017 - HM 1:33, 5k 19:42 - 2 1/2 month injury rehab and then fitness rebuild and adding in some quality

2018 -Marathon 3:03, 5k 19:00, Marathon 2:57 - Got serious about training and did the Daniels 2Q for both marathons and I started participating in this thread regularly.

2019 - Marathon 2:59

Slightly longer version

No previous history of running or cycling.

2013 - Decided I wanted to get in better shape and decide to bike commute to work when convenient as a way of improving my fitness in a low impact way. Ended up bike commuting 2-3 days a week from late summer to early fall.

2014 - I do the bike commuting thing again but from June to October.

2015 - This bike commuting during warmer months has become a bit of a problem because I got used to eating the extra calories that the bike commuting required so I start putting on the weight during the winter. January I started running a bit and then bike commuting as things got warmer. Somewhere along the line I get signed up for a half-marathon so then I start training for that by mixing in more running with my biking and then just running during the winter. I ran my first 5k 23+min. Then a 20k 1:43. Then I needed a race to get in the decent corral for the HM so I ran a 10mi for 1:17.

2016 - Still no serious training and mixing the biking with the running and I end the year with an injury. My run training was influenced by a friend that advised running in HR zone 2. I think that is great for building a base but not for building up for a goal race. HM 1:40, Marathon 3:46, Marathon 3:29

2017 - First quarter spent in injury rehab. with 8 weeks of PT. Did a cautious low mileage build but throwing in some quality when I felt like it. By fall I could tell by my training runs that the little bit of quality I was adding brought me a new level of fitness. The HM where I ran 1:33 I was actually hoping to see something close to 1:35. I underestimated my ability. This gave me hope for a sub 20min 5k so I make a go at that and end up with 19:42 for my effort.

2018 - Time to get that no doubt BQ so I get serious and I do 18 weeks of the Daniels 2Q for 3:03 (BQ - 27min). That's close enough to 3 hours that I decide to do another marathon prior to Boston for a sub 3 attempt. I do a 14 week 2Q build and run CIM for 2:57.

2019 - I run Boston for 2:59 for my only marathon for the year.

I think what these progressions show is that it can take a few years to develop your aerobic fitness.

Let me throw my hat in the injury ring. Yesterday during a recovery run, my VMO got real tired, and then real sore. It hurts just walking up and down stairs now, WTF! Didn’t want to hobble through today’s run so just swam instead.

Just 18 days until Philly. Not only is this week’s 12 MP run in jeopardy but maybe the marathon as well. My best training block ever, and now this bS.

Sorry OR and Darkwave, hope you both get better soon.

darkwave wrote:

runrincerepeat wrote:

Hang in there DW ... I hope you went " Full RRR" on the vehicle and driver after it happend.

Thanks all for the good wishes - hope to participate more fully in the thread the next few days, and to track this weekend.

RRR, I unleashed a mighty wave of profanity at him. I like to think you would have been proud.

Gosh dam right I’m proud. Some moods ..like this week..I either wanna run or fight and I don’t care much which one it is.

Sometimes gotta unleash the beast on these careless drivers. People’s elbow on the hood is a R3 move.

Good lord. darkwave, sounds like a lot of luck you weren't more seriously injured, so I guess a bright side?

OR - Rest, stretch, and get to that dang start line. We all want to see the fruits of your labor.

Everyone else... be safe. Don't push yourself too hard (just hard enough), and save your muscle tearing for when you pump your fist so hard at the finish line after hitting a PR that you tear a bicep. I mean, I sure don't care about my biceps... lets just rip one of those. Give me my legs... arms? Eh.

So sorry to hear Darkwave. Glad you are safe. Hope you heal up and toe the line soon.

OR - Hope the hamstring cooperates enough for you to race Richmond.

JQ and Coach - some great racing for you both. Sorry if I missed other's races.

____________________

Very late post from me. Quite busy with work and other family stuff.

M/40/5'6"/174lbs

Goal: Squeak in under 3 at CIM

M - 7 easy

Tu - 4 easy

W - 11.1 hard

Th - 10 recovery

F - 7.5 easy

S - 6.4 easy

Su - 21.2 moderate

Wednesday: Workout was 20' @ tempo + 5' easy + 10 x 1' on/off + 5' easy + 15' tempo. Did the workout in the middle of the day. Hit the paces that I wanted to - 6:40 for the first tempo set , and 6:30 for the second tempo set. The on/off was done by feel. All the trails and parks were closed here due to fire danger, so did the whole workout on a 1.25 mile loop. Not something I would want to do again :).

Sunday: Another loop for the long run :). 3.5 mile loop with 150 ish feet elevation gain in each loop - did a total of 5 loops. I was running this by feel to simulate moderate effort. The last loop got a little hard for me, but was generally a morale-boosting workout.

Weekly miles: 67.2

Weekly hours: 8:50