Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 11/3/19 (NYC Marathon Edition)

Hi All - first time posting here in awhile. Just started training for Tokyo 2020 following 2Q and am hoping to get advice along the way for those who've trudged this path before. @smoove gave me a great plan last fall for chicago and the only reason to do the more formal 2Q plan is mostly that it looks fun and challenging and has a lot of continuous tempo work which I'm normally really bad at completing. Am hoping I can get down to 2:28 but we'll see how the cycle goes.

M, 36, 143lbs

PR: 1:12:36 and 2:29:41 (Chicago 2019)

I started 2Q this week and did:

Q1: 5E, 6M (5:49) + 1T (5:27) + 5M (5:57) + 1T (5:52) + 1M (6:57)

Q2: 10E, 4T (5:26, 5:40, 5:48, 5:55), 1E, 4T (5:45, 5:59, 6:08, 6:04), 2E

Q1 went fine but my splits were totally thrown off by turning around into a big headwind and big wind gusts for the final 5 miles sapped all my strength and I died. Q2 went really poorly, my legs had no pep and I just couldn't push T, let alone M, pace.

I'm finding it really freaking hard to run 5-10 miles before hammering the Q workouts. I should have prepared more by doing miniworkouts after 10E leading up to this.

For the 2Q veterans: did you also find it challenging to do all of this continuous M and T and E switching at first? Did your legs get used to it? Any ideas on how to adapt?

I am in the same boat as you (albeit quite a bit slower and on slightly lower mileage). Last Wednesday I had 8E+3T+3' rest+2T+2E. Running 8 miles before starting the workout was one of the weirder things I have ever done. I tried to think of it as an extended warm-up and listened to an audio book for the first 6 miles before ditching the headphones and starting to focus in on running some T miles. The extended warm-up definitely made me feel more wobbly than usual post work-out as well. I can see how this type of training would make you really mentally tough in a race that requires prolonged concentration.

Good and bad week for me.

M 4.5 easy

T 7.2 threshold hill reps. These felt good 22+ 200m long hills with about 20-25 foot rise with jogs back.

W 9 easy

T 1.25 hrs bike

F 1.25 hrs bike

S 4 easy with strides

S off

total 25ish.

Decided to take this week off because of the ankle issue. I seem to have had to deal with this every time I have tried running again. I'm sure it is tied to supination. That may also be why I'm always fighting off runners knee. ATM I'm not to worried about it. I joined a gym a few weeks back. Going to swim, lift, bike and maybe pool run this week. I'll just work on cardio and general fitness. The supination kinda bothers me because I use to overpronate a little when young and never had issues. I'm not sure how to really correct it. My politically incorrect opinion is because I'm old, fat and weak now. I guess I'll spend the week correcting two of the three.

RunnerSam wrote:

Darkwave - solid tuesday workout, my wife didn't hit anything near those paces leading into her marathon. How come the 7min pace work at the end of Sunday's Run? (I'll go more indepth into this question once you answer, as it might not be as relevant given you are 1 week out from race day). looking at the pictures: that's not a little tree! hopefully the damage is minimal

So...my general taper routine is "reduce the volume, but don't lose the rhythm of your workouts, and don't drop the intensity".

My normal long runs are progressions - first third at easy effort, second third at moderate effort, last third at marathon effort. So 21 is 7/7/7. When I started tapering, I dropped to 16 (split as 5/5/6). Then this week was shorter - 10-12. I also modified to first third at easy effort, second 2/3 at moderate effort.

I didn't plan on hitting 7:00 for the moderate section. I just ran by effort, checking my HR to be sure I was honest about the effort. That effort and HR usually give me around 7:20-7:30, but they yielded 7:00 flat on Sunday, which I took as a good sign.

Very curious as to your in depth reasons behind the question. I do think taper is one of those really individual things - for me, it's a very careful balance. I obviously don't want to do too much, but it is very easy for me to overtaper and show up flat on race day. I made that mistake several times until I experimented and discovered that doing a bit more made me sharper.

LancRunner - hope the leg clears quickly.

I'm going to try to catch up on shoutouts tonight or tomorrow.

Lanc - it looks cold. Like 20s at the start maybe going up to the 30s. Light winds. Ideal conditions for a hammerfest.

RS - I did 5k@M today. Wednesday is 5x1k @M. I don’t consider those workouts. Just the finishing touches.

Desisa and Hall’s attempts at NYC to go back to back has me thinking I’ve got my hands full. We shall see. Will be an interesting little experiment for sure.

RunnerGirl123 - Looking forward to seeing you at Richmond. :)

AJ - Naa...no problem for you. Remember, you are one tough Alabama-style SOB.

Thanks, everyone, for the comments and support. I am starting to get pumped about Richmond.

angryjohnny wrote:

Lanc - it looks cold. Like 20s at the start maybe going up to the 30s. Light winds. Ideal conditions for a hammerfest.

I think this could be a good one - ideally those winds will stay on the lighter side.

Anyone else thinking about NYC? I've now got this crazy idea to do Chicago and double back to NYC. I may rethink that idea after Indy, when I revisit what post-marathon recovery feels like.

darkwave - I have to admit that NYC 2020 (or NYC II for me) has crossed my mind.

SC - Monster workout Saturday. Worked not spent sounds right. Always a favorite, had something like that planned for 15 days prior to Chicago.

OR - Looking good for Richmond.

NG - Congrats on the mileage PR. I personally like that Daniels taper plan.

AJ - Kill it in Indy. I feel like I’ve learned more about death than life from marathons, but maybe that’s just me.

Slo - Taper hard. Weather forecast doesn’t sound pleasant, but could change. Unless it turns into a blizzard, you’ve got this.

RRR - Easy to feel out of shape after a brief forced time off. Don’t worry, you haven’t lost any fitness.

HJ - Nice, noticeable bump. The cool weather always helps, but surely that block of consistent running does too.

legendre - That’s a solid looking week even without the tempo.

HHW - Congrats on the mileage PR. That’s quite a lot for only being back less than 5 months. You’re probably seeing pretty fast gains right now, which could be why your T pace is faster than the VDOT you’re using. Daniels has some good descriptions of what T effort should be, so you may want to keep those in mind.

darkwave - Tear it up at Indy. The apparel plan sounds reasonable, and definitely smart to do that dress rehearsal.

GT - That 4 x 2, in addition to just being a good workout, was good practice for correcting your pace after going out too hard. Not that you should aim to go out too hard. Looking forward to seeing how you all do.

Bdubs - A disappointing tune-up is a common feature of many great marathon cycles. Regardless, congrats on the PR.

drcrusher - Good marathon tempos. Plenty of hay already in the barn. And even though I’m generally not out there as early, I’m definitely glad to have that hour of sunlight back in the morning.

Napper - Strong week, and quick turnaround for St. Jude.

JQ - Congrats again. Just beastly.

IllinoisRunner - Welcome back. Wishing you a speedy recovery so that you’re ready to roll on the 16th. Been dealing with some extensor tendon problems myself, although they haven’t gotten that bad.

BHViking - Interesting uphill run Saturday afternoon after the solid medium-long run.

Jeff - A half marathon race is doubly Q, so you only then the one. Congrats on the podium. I used to get that imposter feeling in college. At 5’10” 160lbs, I looked like I was in the wrong event. The other guys were all much skinnier and I often overestimated them.

GNR1 - That 24 miler is tough. If you can recover from and absorb that stuff quickly enough, awesome.

Bruin - Congrats on the 5k sorta PR. You’re on a good track for CIM.

RS - Not unusual to feel flat after a lull like that. Just saw/remembered that club nationals is at Lehigh. Fun place to run.

Lanc - Don’t have any real insight on that specific niggle, but hoping for the best. I’ve had a few injuries/niggles pop up on runs that felt amazing, which is somehow extra frustrating.

Runn3rgirl123 - Welcome back, and impressive racing as per usual.

Pewow - First frost run for us this morning. Snow is always fun at the beginning of winter!

MikeMike - 2Q is a beast. I’ve never strictly done it, just used it as an inspiration. Using the track can help make the shifting a little more controlled. And it’s also tough to come back so fast after Chicago.

Pappy - Good luck with the ankle.

Popping in late this week.

jot quill - Congrats on the big PR!

Coach Jeff - Awesome job with getting on the overall podium!

Male 51 5'8" 135lbs

PRs

Marathon 2:57:06 Dec 2018

5k 19:00 June 2018

Upcoming Races

Hopefully a Turkey Trot

April 2020 Boston

Oct. 2020 Chicago ? (waiting to see what's going on with this injury. Deadline Dec. 3rd)

Mon. 4.1mi Easy

Tues. 4.1mi Easy

Wed. 3.5mi Easy

Thurs. 30min bike trainer

Fri. 35min bike trainer

Sat. off

Sun. 15min elliptical, 60min bike trainer

Total 11.8mi running

I had a false start with resuming running last week. My runs Mon. and Tues. went fine but things did not feel right on Wed. so I am taking another break from running. Today things feel OK but I will hold off till later in the week to give running another go. I just need to remember to be patient with this. At least taking Saturday off from a long run (or bike ride)gave me the time and energy to get lots of work done around the house.

mikemike - What mileage 2Q plan are you doing? I've done the 2Q plan 3 times and I will admit that I did not do any one of those mid-week Q runs per plan. For those Q runs I kept them down to about 90min or so by trimming the easy miles at the beginning of the run and then doing the bulk of the workout and maybe trimming some of the cooldown. I'm not saying you should do this, but I felt no guilt in modifying the plan. After working long days I just did not want to spend more than 90min out running by myself in the dark. One thing I do is to do the workouts based upon effort without watching the pace. I usually do my workout portion of the run on a mild grade and many times there is some wind to deal with. I consider adjusting for grade and wind to be part of the training. I found the workouts from the 2Q plan to be rather fatiguing and it took me a while to learn how to dial it back on the easy days in order to recover from the previous workout AND to hit my mileage goals. I used to do a lot of running by HR and found that these easy days my HR would be less than zone 2. I read a lot of comments about the 2Q plan before choosing to use it and one thing that is mentioned is that this plan you learn to run on some tired legs. This may help prepare you for those last few miles of the marathon where the perceived effort really begins to increase.

Thanks fellas. Yeah I know I’m not out of shape. I did an A$$ load of running and biking since May. Went over the log last night and there were some solid aerobic hours before even the running build.

When RRR is cruising w AJ it should all pop into place. Not having to look at watch etc and just... smooth it out and roll.

Stone - Solid week, guessing you'll feel that heavy backload the first few days this week. Looks like you were able to get the necessary work in around the little niggle though, which is always good.

OR - Nice week with a couple good workouts.

AJ - Crush it this weekend.

Slo - You're crazy fit man. Go in confident and take your shot. Philly's a great backup plan so I don't think you have anything to lose this weekend.

RRR - Good luck this weekend. You've done a good job getting some type of work in so I don't think you have much to be worried about with your fitness.

Legendre - Solid week, that 5x 1.5 mile workout is a fun one. Did that a couple weeks ago.

GT - You're one fit dude. Should be a great weekend for you.

Bdubs - Tough to have a bad day on race day, but you're pretty clearly crazy fit right now. Keep it rolling and find another place to take a shot.

Sub 6:00 - If you play your cards right you could knock both of those out in the same TT…

JQ - Geez man, that's an absolutely fantastic performance. Congrats!

Jeff - Nice racing! Those courses out there are no joke!

GNR1 - That's an impressive long run. What does a cut down like that look for you? Pretty even 2-4 seconds/mile or do you end up taking a few bigger jumps and maintaining each of those for a few miles?

Bruin - That's still a really solid week. You're better off putting weeks like that in consistently and staying healthy than pushing all out for 100 mpw and getting hurt.

Lanc - Dude you were all over the place last week. Kudos for still getting some solid training in.

Some great race reports here.

JQ, ran an EPIC race. Sub 6 minute average pace in the marathon!

As I was reading through JQ's Race Report and how he felt in the last 6 miles, I thought to myself, "Jesus, what does someone have to do to NOT feel terrible in the last 10K of a marathon?" JQ's training was a mix of high volume, high quality and EZ running so he basically left no stone unturned.

It makes me wonder what it actually takes to finish the marathon feeling strong (or maybe, no one does?)

Piling on the congrats to JQ. What a breakthrough. Sub-2:30 is going to be within reach soon.

BHViking wrote:

Some great race reports here.

JQ, ran an EPIC race. Sub 6 minute average pace in the marathon!

As I was reading through JQ's Race Report and how he felt in the last 6 miles, I thought to myself, "Jesus, what does someone have to do to NOT feel terrible in the last 10K of a marathon?" JQ's training was a mix of high volume, high quality and EZ running so he basically left no stone unturned.

It makes me wonder what it actually takes to finish the marathon feeling strong (or maybe, no one does?)

Wondering this same thing! Though it sounds like OR had an experience where he felt great and hammered the last 6 miles of a marathon. It seems like almost everyone even if they pace right gets the scary quasi-cramps and survives the last few miles even if they keep pace well.

Maybe I'd also chalk this up to being a very goal-oriented group. So we all go hard after our goals, and don't leave it late.

It's a race. It's supposed to hurt.

From a pace perspective he did finish strong, with all but one of his last miles still being in the low 6:0x range. And hey, even Kamworor had a 20 second jump on that slower mile so I don't think it was really that much of an outlier.

BHViking wrote:

It makes me wonder what it actually takes to finish the marathon feeling strong (or maybe, no one does?)

I was never in the same league as most folks here (although my most recent effort age-graded to 2:36, ha!), but if you're not struggling during the final miles, are you not pushing hard enough?

Sure, some elites seem to cruise through unphased, but most of us mortals are gonna be in some real hurt when we push the performance envelope.

I've usually felt strong at 22 miles, even in my hardest efforts, but the only times I've finished feeling good were when I was vastly underperforming -- my first marathon in 1981 (Montreal), Boston 1983, Toronto 1997, my masters PR marathon in 2003.

My PR was Philadelphia 1982, and miles 23-26 took everything I had to give. I had to be carried from the finish line. I was conscious enough to be nearly in tears, though, having watched my goal slip away during those last three miles.

Of course, I started my watch at the gun, as there was no "chip time" back then. I lined up way too far back on a narrow road, and it seemed to take forever to reach the start line. I'm sure the net time would've been sub-2:40 or darn close. Aargh.

Anyway, congrats to Jot Quill and to all the racers. Phenomenal results lately. I still read through the thread most weeks. Good luck to outsiderunner. My prediction for you is 2:42:23. And hoping you'll better that by two-and-a-half minutes!

Meanwhile, I am adjusting to life as a non-runner. Need to adjust my diet to match. Been gaining two pounds a week. :(

Yeah...I believe JQ is fit enough to run 26.2 miles and finish 'feeling strong' if he wanted to. But that's not the point of a race.

4 days till the Indy crew get to make it hurt.