There’s not a good reason to compare different distances negatively, but even if you did Camille benefits in some ways.
If the marathoners want to grab a 50K world title, assuming it’s possible, they are welcome to try. If marathoners are so fragile that they can’t run an additional 7.8 kms, it’s certainly not Camille’s fault.
Deadslow wrote:
it's such a tiny uncompetitive sport that it can't be given any credibility.
But it's not like some obscure sport that only a few people play, it's ultra running, a sport so difficult and time consuming that very few people are tough enough to succeed in it. The fact that she breaks records by such big margins give her achievements a lot of credibility.
jesseriley wrote:
There’s not a good reason to compare different distances negatively, but even if you did Camille benefits in some ways.
If the marathoners want to grab a 50K world title, assuming it’s possible, they are welcome to try. If marathoners are so fragile that they can’t run an additional 7.8 kms, it’s certainly not Camille’s fault.
50k as an official distance was introduced by the IAU in the mid 90ies. It was supposed to be an introduction into ultrarunning. If you look at Camille it worked. Otherwise I would say it didn't work.
50k is too close to Marathon. No serious Marathon runner in his prime would waste time on that. The real official ultradistances are 100k and 24 hours. Camille won World titles in both of them, so yes she is good.
Excellent point.
But any World Championship is a chance to wear the shirt of your nation.
jesseriley wrote:
Excellent point.
But any World Championship is a chance to wear the shirt of your nation.
If you are a second tier Marathon runner with a PB of let say 2:18 for men or 2:40 for women, you are highly self motivated. You train very hard to shave seconds of your PR for no monetary benefit. I am sure most don't care about that free shirt either.
They rather have a last try to get their Marathon PR down instead of wasting it for some 50k races.
There are a few, very few to have switched to ultras and where very successful but it's a very small number.
Disagree. Many switch, but they fail or DNF and quietly move on.
Impossible to believe also, for example, that an American wouldn’t see the USA and wish (at least a little) it was on themselves.
Evidence of jealousy: WR being trolled.
Great article in the NYT right now to prove my point.
how many times to see stop for selfies?
Additionally, three known exceptions prove the rule:
Thompson Magawana moved up & got the 50K WR in ‘88. They thought others would break it, but it’s stood since then, I think. Not so easy.
Salazar won Comrades in his only ultra. Convicted doper.
Tomoe Abe’s 100K WR, they changed the rules postrace to ratify it.
jesseriley wrote:
Additionally, three known exceptions prove the rule:
Thompson Magawana moved up & got the 50K WR in ‘88. They thought others would break it, but it’s stood since then, I think. Not so easy.
Salazar won Comrades in his only ultra. Convicted doper.
Tomoe Abe’s 100K WR, they changed the rules postrace to ratify it.
And they might have to change the rules again for these new shoes.
Or the performance gets an Vaporfly asterisk.
Camille would be a decent marathoner if she didn't insist on smiling every step of every race. Look at Brigid Kosgei: doesn't even smile after demolishing the marathon WR.
YMMV wrote:
Camille would be a decent marathoner if she didn't insist on smiling every step of every race. Look at Brigid Kosgei: doesn't even smile after demolishing the marathon WR.
Smiling or not, Camille would have been a better Marathoner with a better not so meat focused diet.
A couple less beers would be good too.
BmoreRunner wrote:[quote]jesseriley wrote:
3 WCs, several WRs, plus Comrades. Clearly the best in the world right now.[/quote}
She has never put it together on the trails. She needs to focus on that and challenge others at Western States to really be the top dog.
Also I hate to say it but it's worth noting she ran this in the Next%...
Can I say you're both wrong? She is the best in the world from 50 miles (Dixon's recent 50 km world champs gold and WR settled it for that distance) thru 24 hours. *And* she has the WR / world best for many distances in between (save for the 100km WR of 6:33, another discussion for another time). That is phenomenal range. The sport is broad enough that no single person can be "best." I don't know why people feel such compulsions to label things / people that way when it clearly oversimplifies these things.
The shoes are an annoying topic, but absolutely worth noting (I'm still working on processing it). Also worth noting that the course was slow, had a large field (lots of foot traffic), warm weather, and she started out with aggressive pacing for the first 62 miles as as she thought the course was 1400 meters, not 1500 meters.
Generally speaking, as far as trails go, she has yet to prove herself. That in no way shape or form diminishes her status. Do you maintain Kilian Jornet must run Comrades, Spartathlon, etc? Of course I'd respect her for going for it in some trail races (and I personally appreciate range and ability across surfaces), but surely you can see how silly an argument that may be. I'd hope you'd maintain every female WS runner should run Comrades sometime too as well as world 100km or 24 hours.
jesseriley wrote:Additionally, three known exceptions prove the rule:
Thompson Magawana moved up & got the 50K WR in ‘88. They thought others would break it, but it’s stood since then, I think. Not so easy.
Salazar won Comrades in his only ultra. Convicted doper.
Tomoe Abe’s 100K WR, they changed the rules postrace to ratify it.
PLEASE Jesse - you're grossly oversimplifying and your biases are blinding you. Salazar was convicted as a coach (and mostly for obstructing justice, or something along those lines). To date I don't believe he has ever been convicted as an athlete (not saying he didn't dope either, but some nuance and precision is your friend in these discussions).
Magawana? come on - Thompson was a great runner, but few runners of his caliber race Two Oceans the way he did. He set the WR as a split in that race. Not one 2:08 guy is running 50 Ks or Two Oceans. Yes, others could break it if others were to race it. They have more monetary incentive to be journey -men marathoners and place respectably in IAAF Gold Label races than to race Two Oceans. The only elite participants are locals - they're good, but they're not world class level marathoners.
Tomoe Abe's 100 km WR is as I mentioned, another conversation for another time. She was a much faster marathoner than Camille. Yes, the IAAF allowed 50% separation instead of 30% start-finish separation, which accommodated her record. I don't think there was any corruption or any malicious planning to specifically include it (pray tell, who in the IAAF remotely cares about the 100 km WR). More significantly, that rule change allows NYCM to be record eligible. Yes, it is likely that mark was possibly wind aided, but Camille on her best day never had the wheels Abe did.
YMMV wrote:Camille would be a decent marathoner if she didn't insist on smiling every step of every race. Look at Brigid Kosgei: doesn't even smile after demolishing the marathon WR.
Believe it or not, a positive disposition in these much longer races helps tremendously.
But do biological men actually run these stance distances? Putting that many miles in would absolutely destroy their testosterone levels - i bet the top ultra runnering males and females are pretty close in this regard.
Sure, an oversimplification, but this forum has certain limitations in terms of length & general interest.
My biases are mostly for “basic” courses. Difficult trails can be quite elitist & inaccessible. To me it’s ridiculous to give them equal standing. In addition, there’s no agreement within the trail community on standards.
Crossing over among distances, Camille’s ability over the much longer distances, plus the mark itself (gender-graded above all men except Kouros) is extraordinary. Of course comparisons aren’t fully objective. My goal is to tell others, Stop & Savor the Flavor. These magnificent runs don’t happen every day.
The alternative is to let the trolls & the ignorant & the biased attack a WR, and I’m not really comfortable with that.
Gravvvy wrote:
But do biological men actually run these stance distances? Putting that many miles in would absolutely destroy their testosterone levels - i bet the top ultra runnering males and females are pretty close in this regard.
You probably have never heard of Yiannis Kouros. He ran already long distances when Camille was a baby.
Gravvvy wrote:But do biological men actually run these stance distances? Putting that many miles in would absolutely destroy their testosterone levels - i bet the top ultra runnering males and females are pretty close in this regard.
that's a cute sentiment, but yes, men do run these distances, and I haven't seen any evidence to support the notion you put forth.