Have you considered adding in both hard and light spin bike sessions to supplement the running? I found it keeps the weight down and shakes off the lower limb issues (though not the knee). All long runs should be on soft surfaces.
Have you considered adding in both hard and light spin bike sessions to supplement the running? I found it keeps the weight down and shakes off the lower limb issues (though not the knee). All long runs should be on soft surfaces.
fisky wrote:
Where did this quote from Frank Short come from? One of his books? Regardless, I agree with Shorter's comment, but Dave's interpretation of what it means is debatable.
Dave writes, "I'm sure everyone realizes that less intensity and more recovery time is necessary as we age."
I agree that more recovery time is necessary, but the "less intensity" part is misleading. Yes, we should reduce workout volume and speed, but the high intensity effort level needs to stay. In fact, we need more short-term high intensity training to boost testosterone, metabolism, and slow the aging process.
There are outliers, e.g., Ed Whitlock, who can put in long slow miles and stay world class. The rest of us need to follow Frank Shorter's advice to hit the weight room. The body of clinical and anecdotal evidence supporting HIIT training for older athletes is compelling.
Note: By HIIT, I'm referring to the approach taught by Phil Campbell (8x 20-30sec of very high intensity effort that can be weightlifting, elliptical, hill reps, etc.), not the HIIT that's done in Crossfit boxes. Phil calls this the Sprint 8 workout. I met Phil 20 years ago, but I only added the weight HIITs and hill sprints to my routine about 4 years ago.
Agree and infact the blogger doesnt have a clue. You need too add more intensity and reduce overall mileage so to thrive, and obviously adjust expectations. Works well for me and this is also what is being suggested by Joe Friel in his reference book "Fast after 50" that any good age group runner should read.
KAV wrote:
fisky wrote:
Where did this quote from Frank Short come from? One of his books? Regardless, I agree with Shorter's comment, but Dave's interpretation of what it means is debatable.
Dave writes, "I'm sure everyone realizes that less intensity and more recovery time is necessary as we age."
I agree that more recovery time is necessary, but the "less intensity" part is misleading. Yes, we should reduce workout volume and speed, but the high intensity effort level needs to stay. In fact, we need more short-term high intensity training to boost testosterone, metabolism, and slow the aging process.
There are outliers, e.g., Ed Whitlock, who can put in long slow miles and stay world class. The rest of us need to follow Frank Shorter's advice to hit the weight room. The body of clinical and anecdotal evidence supporting HIIT training for older athletes is compelling.
Note: By HIIT, I'm referring to the approach taught by Phil Campbell (8x 20-30sec of very high intensity effort that can be weightlifting, elliptical, hill reps, etc.), not the HIIT that's done in Crossfit boxes. Phil calls this the Sprint 8 workout. I met Phil 20 years ago, but I only added the weight HIITs and hill sprints to my routine about 4 years ago.
Agree and infact the blogger doesnt have a clue. You need too add more intensity and reduce overall mileage so to thrive, and obviously adjust expectations. Works well for me and this is also what is being suggested by Joe Friel in his reference book "Fast after 50" that any good age group runner should read.
Hey KAV,
What does your training look like week to week?
The Joker? wrote:
Coyote Montane wrote:
While I'm no stud like those on the 50+ thread or in this one, can hold my own here and there. I don't do HIIT or weights
False modesty or tongue-in-cheek?
I misspoke and apologize for that. Should have said Letsrun (in general) instead of 50+ thread. A lot of good runners in there, as one of the consistent contributors says each week, "best to most." That said, general Letsrun populace, going by the standard that either you are a sponsored pro or a schlub; that's more what I was referring to.
And what's more, I was taking a swipe at the previous comment which said that unless you are doing HIIT, you are slacking. Or
"But if you intend to be competitive at the state and national level, you have to be willing to suffer through the same sprint/interval workouts we did in HS and college...Hard work is its own reward.
If pain is your enemy, it's kicking your ass."
I work fairly hard, but train smart. This bull crashing to the wall type admonishment is kind of BS in my opinion.
Hope that clarifies what I was saying a bit better.
You give me gas.
KAV wrote:
fisky wrote:
Where did this quote from Frank Short come from? One of his books? Regardless, I agree with Shorter's comment, but Dave's interpretation of what it means is debatable.
Dave writes, "I'm sure everyone realizes that less intensity and more recovery time is necessary as we age."
I agree that more recovery time is necessary, but the "less intensity" part is misleading. Yes, we should reduce workout volume and speed, but the high intensity effort level needs to stay. In fact, we need more short-term high intensity training to boost testosterone, metabolism, and slow the aging process.
There are outliers, e.g., Ed Whitlock, who can put in long slow miles and stay world class. The rest of us need to follow Frank Shorter's advice to hit the weight room. The body of clinical and anecdotal evidence supporting HIIT training for older athletes is compelling.
Note: By HIIT, I'm referring to the approach taught by Phil Campbell (8x 20-30sec of very high intensity effort that can be weightlifting, elliptical, hill reps, etc.), not the HIIT that's done in Crossfit boxes. Phil calls this the Sprint 8 workout. I met Phil 20 years ago, but I only added the weight HIITs and hill sprints to my routine about 4 years ago.
Agree and infact the blogger doesnt have a clue. You need too add more intensity and reduce overall mileage so to thrive, and obviously adjust expectations. Works well for me and this is also what is being suggested by Joe Friel in his reference book "Fast after 50" that any good age group runner should read.
I would also recommend "Fast after 50" to age group runners. On HIIT, he seems to stress intervals for 3 minutes more than the true 8x 20-30 second Sprint 8 workouts that I prefer. This is really the sweet spot for HIIT, whether it's weights, elliptical, spinning, or hill reps.
I'd like to see him add a section/chapter on long-term strategies for performance 5-10 years or more down the road and talk more about true HIIT.
As lifelong runners, we should be thinking not just about how fast we'll be in 6 weeks, but how fast we'll be in 6 years. This is where HIIT excels.
At 67, I started doing HIIT workouts with weights under the supervision of a trainer (not Crossfit). I did it a lot... 4-5x/week. My friends said, "Won't that hinder your running?" I replied that it did, but I wasn't training to race well that weekend or next month or even next year. I was training to age slower than my competition so I could race better versus my competition when I moved into a new age group.
After about a year, I saw it paying dividends. At age 69, I ran 400m faster than I had run it in about 10 years. At 70, I was more competitive than ever versus my competition. To me, the implications are obvious. If you want to age slower (and thus run faster compared to your peers), you must incorporate HIIT into your workout routine.
homer.and.gomer wrote:
now that I am drawing social security, I find that very few of my peers are willing to hit the weight room or the track for intense work. At races, it shows.
I am all for recreational running for health. But if you intend to be competitive at the state and national level, you have to be willing to suffer through the same sprint/interval workouts we did in HS and college. Maybe not as many I( do speed work on Sundays and Wednesdays), and maybe not as fast (old age is a biotch), but hard work is required to hit those kinds of times.
My training partner is 73. He still pumps out sprint workouts that many HS runners would be proud of. He popped a 2:47 800 in practice last week. I can barely break 3:00 in an 800 these days, but still run 35 minutes for 5 miles on 40-45 mpw.
Hard work is its own reward.
If pain is your enemy, it's kicking your ass.
I don't know why reading this makes me so proud.
Well done, brother.
I hope to be where you are in a few decades.
Fisky I think you are on to something. CM is an outlier , most runners over 60 are NOT training the way they did in their 50s let alone 40s. Gene Dykes is another example of success after 60 using traditional methods.
CM , until the last 2 years,I recall your winters were cross country skiing with little or no running for months on end. Low impact and higher total of intensity + volume.
Eventually all but a few have to change the way they train.
Watch the youtube video of Shorter running a half in his sixties 2:04 and that was all out.
IMO He looks horrible. Was it cumulative ? His bent over posture and zero leg elasticity is just awful.
One last point or maybe first? As I enter the twilight zone I am way more focused on diet and biomarkers , running is just a part of my healthspan plan which I call runspan. If my running compromises my healthspan in any way I will change my running or even quit running. Exercise will always be a key part of healthspan so having others activities especially ones that compliment running is very important to me.
this was 2014 I guess making Frank 66 at the time:
I want to be like those guys wrote:
I try to follow Sly's incredible workouts - the guys is freaking 72 years old and could pass for some of the 55 year olds at my gym! I find myself doing much more weight training & non-weightbearing cardio due to a long history of chronic injuries and now arthritis. Sly has a few videos on his diet but I wonder what kind of supplements he's using? Anyone here use any OTC supplements such as creatine, BCAA's, DHEA, etc?
https://youtu.be/9b1SXFvk5Eo
I lift 5 days a week on a single body part split (back, chest, biceps, shoulders, triceps in that order), pre workout I take 25g of whey protein, 6g of BCAAs, and 8g of citruline malate 2:1.
Post workout it's 25g of whey protein, 6g of BCAAs, and 5g of creatine.
54 and still running 45-50 mpw.
Charlie wrote:
Fisky I think you are on to something. CM is an outlier , most runners over 60 are NOT training the way they did in their 50s let alone 40s. Gene Dykes is another example of success after 60 using traditional methods.
CM , until the last 2 years,I recall your winters were cross country skiing with little or no running for months on end. Low impact and higher total of intensity + volume.
Eventually all but a few have to change the way they train.
Watch the youtube video of Shorter running a half in his sixties 2:04 and that was all out.
IMO He looks horrible. Was it cumulative ? His bent over posture and zero leg elasticity is just awful.
One last point or maybe first? As I enter the twilight zone I am way more focused on diet and biomarkers , running is just a part of my healthspan plan which I call runspan. If my running compromises my healthspan in any way I will change my running or even quit running. Exercise will always be a key part of healthspan so having others activities especially ones that compliment running is very important to me.
Pulling up some articles on Shorter, he has some significant injuries; knee surgery for a torn meniscus in 2014, a partial knee replacement in 2018 and back surgery a few years ago.
Being able to competitively run in your middle-age generally comes down to injury history, body type and genetics (not so much for fitness/rec running as long as you stay healthy). In Shorter's case he definitely has the body type, of course the genetics (world-class marathoner), but has an injury history. So, how did this happen? Excessive wear & tear from decades of elite marathon training? Acute injuries occurring as he got older?
You mentione CM & Dykes - I considered those guys to have superb genetics to be able to train & race at such a high level considering their age. But they don't seem to have any significant injuries like Shorter has experienced (maybe they got into running later in life?). And if there is an excessive wear and tear component from decades of hard trading when you're younger resulting in significant injuries when you get older, then probably less running and more non-weightbeating activity would be better.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailycamera.com/2018/05/24/frank-shorter-relishes-all-aspects-of-bolder-boulder/amp/https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/190-000-miles-and-counting-frank-shorter-s-extraordinary-running-career-1.3661825%3fmode=amphttps://www.runnersworld.com/races-places/a20842749/frank-shorter-looks-forward-to-return-to-boston/Interesting to compare Frank to Joanie. She never had Franks poetic form in their youth, and battled injuries as much as anybody, but she is still cranking out the times (3:04 at Boston this year). I don't know if she lifts, but she is absolutely ripped, looks under 10% bodyfat.
Not quite 50 but getting close. I’ve found doing my hard intervals on uphills, then walking back down and resisting all urge to run has helped me fend off injuries that used to accompany hard workouts.
Agree with KAV
Any master should read the book “fast after 50”. Spinning or cycling can help if your legs can’t handle more running. I will make my next trainingprogram based on Joe Friel’s book
I lift 5 days a week on a single body part split (back, chest, biceps, shoulders, triceps in that order), pre workout I take 25g of whey protein, 6g of BCAAs, and 8g of citruline malate 2:1.
Post workout it's 25g of whey protein, 6g of BCAAs, and 5g of creatine.
54 and still running 45-50 mpw.
Are you retired? I couldn't possibly squeeze all of that in with mileage.
52 years old and struggling.
I can get out there but it's not pretty. What gets you is the injuries and the long term effects of those injuries. You tear a hammy, or you have a knee surgery, you lose some ROM, then you strain a calf, little more loss of ROM, as you age you put on a little weight, there goes ever more loss.. pretty soon your stride is GONE and you're doing that old man shuffle.
Strength work is important.
Mobility is important.
Varied running paces is important (obviously.)
Luck is very very important.
Tim L wrote:
I lift 5 days a week on a single body part split (back, chest, biceps, shoulders, triceps in that order), pre workout I take 25g of whey protein, 6g of BCAAs, and 8g of citruline malate 2:1.
Post workout it's 25g of whey protein, 6g of BCAAs, and 5g of creatine.
54 and still running 45-50 mpw.
Are you retired? I couldn't possibly squeeze all of that in with mileage.
Nope, still working about 50 hours/week. Hope to retire next year though.
I do a very basic lifting routine:
Three times a,week. I do 2-3 sets of biceps curls, military press, lat presses, and bench press.
I don't max on bench due to chronic lower back issues. But some is better than none.
Twice a week on the track, i do some pretty fast stuff relatively speaking.
A 15 x 200 workout is more effective at my age than 10 x 400.
Once a week, i hit a 5 or 7 mile time trial on the track, trying to keep every 400 in a 3 second window until the final lap.
Ran 7 miles last wednesday in 50:22, pretty good run for me.
Add a 7 mile hill route and a long run of 10-13 miles to finish the week.
I get just as much satisfaction out of a good workout as a race.
Brit wrote:
Agreed.
Also, with all due respect, Frank seems confused.
If you “lock on” to an amount + intensity of training and keep that going, why would you lose muscle? You won’t.
It’s use it OR lose it, not use it AND lose it.
Unfortunately, even if one follows an "ideal" resistance training program + diet throughout adulthood, at some point one will begin to lose LBM & strength. Of course, one will have more LBM and will be stronger than one otherwise would be and the relative advantage increases with age even as these markers slowly decline.
Axle try beano, must be something in your diet. Coyotes are lean and do not have a lot of fiber.
Charlie, I hung up the ski racing in 2014 and get out maybe 10-15 days a year now. But that's what I did for 3-6 months of the year for 24 or 25 of 30 years. So that's a lot off time (like maybe 7 years combined) while getting great aerobic benefit. Maybe my legs are only 53 or 54 now. I enjoy the more aerobic based training, it seems to be working so I'll keep at for the time being. I like seeing your innovative approaches and med/science links.
EZ10miler, luck may have a lot to do with it.