Franz Stampfl 800m training?

Doubell's Winter Training (1:44.40 WR , Olympic Champion in 1968)

Morning: 6-8K jog

Evening: 5K Warm-up

M 50x100 [40 brisk walk]

T 10x1200 [880]

W 20x300

Th 10x600

F Rest

Sat 30x200 (often did a Time trial first)

Sun 20x400 (often did a Time trial first)

All done on a cinders track. If it was too wet to train on the track, they went for a 15k run around the roads.

Doubell started by doing about half of the above as competitive season approached, volume was halved and speed was increased.

**Timetrials over 200,300,400 and 600 (for speed).

Mileage 19-25K a day

This training produced 2 x 1:44 (Doubell 1:44.40 and Bourke 1:44.78 ) and 1 x 1:45 (Higham 1:45.7).

Thanks for the input?

Anyone has a Stampfl book? It shows some generic scheds for the 800m.

Got a copy of "Stampfl On Running" at home. From memory, the 880 yard schedules are not very different from the mile schedules. Based on increasing the speed of the repetions throughout the year. For example, start with 10x440 yards in 70 seconds in November, by May run the 440s in 60 seconds with the same recovery.

Agree that this is rather different to that given for Doubell - which I have seen cited in several different books.

JRinaldi wrote:

Doubell's Winter Training (1:44.40 WR , Olympic Champion in 1968)

Morning: 6-8K jog

Evening: 5K Warm-up

M 50x100 [40 brisk walk]

T 10x1200 [880]

W 20x300

Th 10x600

F Rest

Sat 30x200 (often did a Time trial first)

Sun 20x400 (often did a Time trial first)

All done on a cinders track. If it was too wet to train on the track, they went for a 15k run around the roads.

Doubell started by doing about half of the above as competitive season approached, volume was halved and speed was increased.

**Timetrials over 200,300,400 and 600 (for speed).

Mileage 19-25K a day

This training produced 2 x 1:44 (Doubell 1:44.40 and Bourke 1:44.78 ) and 1 x 1:45 (Higham 1:45.7).

Do you know the intensity of those workouts/days? I guess a lot of it had to be way treshold speed.

And as you are here Rinaldi, I have to say how open you are about training and workouts on instagram is really cool! Could you perhaps say a little about your philosophy for 800m runners? My impression is that its mostly a 400/800 type of program, with low milage and a lot of focus on speed?

What's Rinaldi"s Instagram handle?

Doubell's workouts were in the 68-70sec range for the high volume sessions eg 10x800 at 2:16-20 with an easy lap jog (3-4 min). Stampfl coached up to 50 athletes across multiple events, so it was easy to take extra rest if he wasn't watching :) Time trials on the week ends were pretty quick - Doubell might start with 3:00 for 1200 in winter and then hit 2:51 before peaking.

Insta handle is jrinaldi800 - I try post most the workouts the guys do.

Basic week (racing season two months away)

Mon a. 20min p. Hills (fast 5x60m 1x200m)

Tue a. 20-30min p. vVO2max workout 8km volume

Wed a. 40-50min p. Weights

Thu a. 20-30min p. 1500m pace 20x200m (30sec rest)

Fri a. 30min p. Weights

Sat a. 4-5x1mile (2min) 4:40-4:50

Sun 50-70min

The Tue/Thur works outs are the only thing that really changes winter to summer. We keep speed (Mon) going year round and the longer Sat repeats year round as well. I don't really count weekly mileage, so always give the runs in minutes rather than distance.

Thats fast, but also incredible long recovery. But I guess thats one of the hardest workouts he did during the week. Do you know, or perhaps you yourself, anyone on a good international level who has tried Doubell-like training in modern times?

Thanks for sharing Justin! If you don't mind I have a few questions.

When do you decide to do hill sprints vs sprints on the tracks, in season vs out of season? And is there a plan for the long/sometimes more than one sprint after the short ones, or do you just mix it up? and whats the intensity on that one?

How do you define the intensity of vVO2 max workouts? I've read somewhere that its above treshold, just so you get a good breathing but not anything close to all out. Not sure if thats correct. Ever testet lactate on your guys like the Scandinavians seems to do so much now?

1500m pace with only 30 seconds rest! Wow. Thats harder than I would have thought with so short rest. The hardest workout of the week?

The saturday workout, hows the intensity on that and what is the difference to the vVO2 max workout?

Quite interesting and impressive group you have got going. Are you influenced by anyone particular in the way you train your athletes, it seem to be somewhat close to what I remember reading you had best success with as an athlete.

I cant find the Stampfl book in my country, so if anyone has it could please show the 800 schedules?

Did for ex. Peter Bourke train the same way, i ve read that he did mostly 400s and intervals or time trials 3-4 times a week while averaging max 40miles a week.

How did Doubell s intervals changed near racing season?

Milers progressed the pace of 400s and reduced the number of longer reps as far as i ve read.

I've got a few of Franz's books at home and I'll see how I can photocopy them. It should be noted that the scheduals in his books are a little different from what he was giving his guys in the late 60's and early 80's, which is inline with my earlier post.

I also have Peter's diary from 1982 when he ran 1:44.78 and the workouts are very similar. The only hard part is that the rest between intervals was never times,so it could vary a lot from workout to workout. Again, weekend time trials were the key along with bulk interval workouts.

Side note - Peter Bourke went to the same high school as a few other great Australian 800m athletes. St. Kevins and it's the club that all my guys compete for.

Alex Rowe 1:44.40

Peter Bourke 1:44.78

Luke Mathews 1:45.16

John Higham 1:45.60 (passed away on the weekend)

Simon Lewin 1:47.06

My training; we always use to use the track for speed work every Monday night year round, but recently switched to doing a similar workout on the hills as the track has been unavailable recently and is just about to be resurfaced. A normal session would be 3 sets of 30,40,50m followed by a fast 200 at the end. Good read re the benefits of this -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30300023

vVO2Max pace is roughly a little quicker than 3k pace. Or you can just do a 6min test and see how far you run, then divide that by 360 and that will give you your pace in meters per second. We don;t really use any lap testing or lactate testing as it's not always available and I prefer to use things that are repeatable no matter where you are. That doesn't mean that it's not useful.

from Stampfl on running (pp. 94 ff.)

November

1) 6x440y 66s (3 min rest) + 4x150y 18s (3-5 min rest)

2) 3x880y 2:15 (10 min rest) + 6x150y

3) 10x220y 29-30s (3 min rest)

4) like 1)

5) 6-8 mi fartlek

6) calisthenics

7)rest

December

1) 8x440y 66s + 4x150 y

2) 4x880y 2:12

3) 10x220y 28-29 s

4) like 1)

5) fartlek

6) calisthenics

7) rest

January

1) 10x440y 66 s

2) 10x220y 27-28 s

3) 4x880y 2:10

4) 20x100y, 20 starts from blocks

5) fartlek

6) calisthenics

7) rest

February

1) 10x440y 64 s

2) 10x220y 29 s (2 min rec.), 20 starts from blocks

3) 4x880y 2:08

4) 10x220y 27 s (3 min rec.), 4x60y fast

5) fartlek

6) calisthenics

7) rest

March

1) 10x440y 62 s

2) 10x220y 28 s, 20 starts from blocks

3) 3x880y 2:06

4) 10x150y 17.5 s

5) fartlek

6) calisthenics

7) rest

April

1) 8x440y 59 s (3 min rec.)

2) 6x660y 1:28 (10 min rec.)

3) 10x330y 41 s (5 min rec.)

4) 20x100y from starting block 11.5 s (3-5 min rest)

5) 8x440y 59 s

6) fartlek

7) rest

May 1.st week

1) 8x440y 57 s

2) 4x660y 1:26

3) 10x330y 39 s

4) 30 min easy

5) rest

6) 2 x 660y time trial 1:22.5 (15 min rest)

7) fartlek

May second week

1) 8x440y 57 s

2) 10x220y 26 s

3) 4x880y 2:00

4) 660y time trial 1:22.5

5) 10x100y 11.5 s

6) rest

7) fartlek

note:

up to 5x intervals every week!

changes from December to May

440y (402 m) improving from 66 down to 57 s

220y (201 m) from 29-30 s to 26 s

introducing more and more starts from blocks and 100y sprints

introducing 660y (603 m) time trials at 800 m race pace in May.

These schedules are from 1955 and very systematic.

But I doubt anybody used it to the very detail...

E.g. the miler (goal time 4:00) progresses to 10x440y in 60 s, but the 800 m runner should do 8x440y in 57 s which is a far superior workout in my opinion? Now should the 800 m runner then be able to run an even faster mile (maybe close to 3:50) than the one mile specialist?

JRinaldi wrote:

Doubell's Winter Training (1:44.40 WR , Olympic Champion in 1968)

Morning: 6-8K jog

Evening: 5K Warm-up

M 50x100 [40 brisk walk]

T 10x1200 [880]

W 20x300

Th 10x600

F Rest

Sat 30x200 (often did a Time trial first)

Sun 20x400 (often did a Time trial first)

All done on a cinders track. If it was too wet to train on the track, they went for a 15k run around the roads.

Doubell started by doing about half of the above as competitive season approached, volume was halved and speed was increased.

**Timetrials over 200,300,400 and 600 (for speed).

Mileage 19-25K a day

This training produced 2 x 1:44 (Doubell 1:44.40 and Bourke 1:44.78 ) and 1 x 1:45 (Higham 1:45.7).

Sadly John Higham passed away this week from cancer. RIP

Wow, thanks very much!

Jrinaldi!

Would be great if you can show the 1,44 Peter Bourke log too!!

Thanks!

Thanks for the link!

I see, is the vVO2Max workout your guys hardest workout or perhaps that is the 20x200m?

I'm struggling to see the big difference in the VO2Max and the mile repeats on saturday, could you give an example of V02Max workout?

Last question! I've seen Canova and Joe Rubio talk about the importance of doing repeats in 800m speed year round, gradually increasing the distance, you dont seem to have any of that outside of track season?

Could we get the Peter Bourke logs? Would be fantastic!

The great Franz Stampfl has an important "corner" in my Dancan system.That`s his idea of the so called "Staying Power" that means he increased the length over time of the runners goal pace for the race distance.So instead of have the runner to run faster than race pace at parts of the goal distance his main idea was to keep the race pace but improve the runners stamina to hold as long as possible for most of the race distance in training .

I myself use this idea of "Staying power" when I coach middle distances when it comes to sharpening repetitions at race pace .As we see in example schedules his runners often were doing

interval/repetitions in consecutive days and it functioned very well ( 1:44 at 800) , but todays more modern training with mostly 2-3 workouts per week in combination with good aerob power ( LSD, Long Steady Distance) gives even better results because the aerob demand for middle distances is quite high. More aerob than anaerob demand.

- Staying Power -