Alice Wright stress fracture

E-Y-E wrote:

I was reading a tweet from NAZ Elite recapping their team's marathons this year when I remembered that Alice Wright was supposed to make her debut in Chicago. It looks like she's out with a stress fracture. I didn't follow her college career, was she injury-prone given how thin she is?

That's what happens when you try to run with a Klosterhalfen/Hassen-type of weight WITHOUT having access to the drugs, meds and recovery facilities that Nike/NOP have. Here on LR it was repeatedly said that having such a low BMI/weight is NOT compatible with long-term success in distance running and WILL lead to injuries.

Salazar athletes are the EXCEPTION of athletes being able to get away with it, be it the calcitonine toothpaste, prescription-doses of Vit D3 (50,000 IE multiple times a week), switching mileage to underwater treadmiles/alter G etc. We don't know all the secret things he was doing, and tbh we rather shouldn't.

Runners like Koko/Hassan should NOT be the standard to strive for, but rather a few lbs more than what they have. Salazar figured out how to keep his athletes injury-free despite high mileage, intensity, and incredibly low weight, but he has endless resources at Nike AND the willingness to step deep into/outside the grey area to make sure his athletes don't get fractures.

I'm feeling very sorry for Wright, she had so much potential for a great race in her marathon debut, but hope she sees it as a learning experience.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

That's what happens when you try to run with a Klosterhalfen/Hassen-type of weight WITHOUT having access to the drugs, meds and recovery facilities that Nike/NOP have. Here on LR it was repeatedly said that having such a low BMI/weight is NOT compatible with long-term success in distance running and WILL lead to injuries.

So how would you explain that Koko had no major (bone-)injury before she joined NOP with the same body type?

Eilish McColgan has the same slim body type and runs pretty successful while being sponsored by Asics.

Just curious, why does the lower body weight or body fat cause more injuries?

Genuine question as this isn’t an area of expertise.

IPWD wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

That's what happens when you try to run with a Klosterhalfen/Hassen-type of weight WITHOUT having access to the drugs, meds and recovery facilities that Nike/NOP have. Here on LR it was repeatedly said that having such a low BMI/weight is NOT compatible with long-term success in distance running and WILL lead to injuries.

So how would you explain that Koko had no major (bone-)injury before she joined NOP with the same body type?

Eilish McColgan has the same slim body type and runs pretty successful while being sponsored by Asics.

Easy - Koko used to be a very low mileage runner in Germany. She was extremely good, but not a World/Olympic medalist. She is not going to get injured on 40 mpw with 2-3 light/moderate workouts a week, no matter how light she is.

With Salazar/Julian, she not only increased her mileage, but the workouts were WAY more demanding. A fragile body like that would break during that training load. Plenty of girls suffer stress fractures in their feet due to trying to obtain a ridiculous weight. But NOP knows how to prevent stress fractures, despite insane training load and solid mileage, and a lot of it is medical drugs.

McColgan is also very light, but she has never been a high mileage runner. She runs 40-45 mpw, and does a LOT and I tell you a LOT of cross-training. She won't get injured by spending over an hour each day on the elliptical.

So we have:

Low mileage & low weight - fine (McColgan)

High mileage & low weight & Salazar drugs/NOP facilities - fine (Koko)

High mileage & low weight - fracture (Wright)

McColgan actually used to do 70, but was struggling with injuries and reduced, focusing more on quality and cross-training and worked out very well for her.

Some girls, and I think all 3 of them are just naturally very skinny/light, but that makes them prone to stress fractures. I'm not saying Wright's only way is to gain way, but she needs to do something to prevent that from happening in the future.

Ciro wrote:

Just curious, why does the lower body weight or body fat cause more injuries?

Genuine question as this isn’t an area of expertise.

Lots of research on this topic.

Initially I also didn't believe it, since it's logical that a lower weight reduces the impact forces and shouldn't lead to more injuries, but these girls have such low weight and bone density that they become fragile again even at the very low impact.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Ciro wrote:

Just curious, why does the lower body weight or body fat cause more injuries?

Genuine question as this isn’t an area of expertise.

Lots of research on this topic.

https://www.healio.com/orthopedics/sports-medicine/news/print/orthopedics-today/%7B8a757a84-04a9-4ab0-9fb8-e60f3b6cd7c2%7D/stress-fractures-more-prevalent-in-lean-athleteshttps://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/fitness/how-athletes-eating-patterns-can-affect-bone-health-fitness/article33953963/

Initially I also didn't believe it, since it's logical that a lower weight reduces the impact forces and shouldn't lead to more injuries, but these girls have such low weight and bone density that they become fragile again even at the very low impact.

Thanks Phil, I’ll read those links later when I get a chance.

That obviously makes sense in terms of stress fractures and women. Does it correlate or show up in terms of other types injuries? And is it relevant for male distance runners also?

I apologize if those issues are covered in the articles but I won’t have a chance to read them for a few hours.

I think you're just making wildly broad generalizations based on nothing but your own prejudices. For instance, if NOP was so great at preventing injuries, please explain Hasay and Rupp then?

Are you just making this stuff up? If he's got such a plan to protect tiny people from stress fractures, why is Jordan always broken?

Ciro wrote:

Just curious, why does the lower body weight or body fat cause more injuries?

Genuine question as this isn’t an area of expertise.

Definitely read the articles provided downthread as they will have more comprehensive information, but often at such a low body weight a woman will not be menstruating regularly, if at all. Amenorrhea carries with it a high risk of low bone density, which equals higher risk of stress fractures. As for men, I'm not entirely sure the correlation.

A good read from Steph Bruce, who despite being very lean herself has always kept her period throughout her pro career (she mentions she did lose it for a period in college) and I believe has stayed fairly healthy throughout the years:

what? no wrote:

Are you just making this stuff up? If he's got such a plan to protect tiny people from stress fractures, why is Jordan always broken?

I dunno about the veracity of Phil's claims (though I would buy that there are a lot of grey area things going on, obviously) but there would be a significant difference in the amount of mileage Hasay is doing to train for the marathon than what Koko & Hassan are doing for the track. Perhaps without said grey area stuff, she (and the others) would have found her breaking point much sooner than she did.

Drugs aside, literally every other training group has access to similar facilities as the Nike groups these days. Even Tinman Elite.

Strength coaches, pools, massage therapists, etc. You name it, they’ve all got it. You cannot use that as an excuse for why other groups get injured.

And guess what? Facilities do not make the difference. A majority of BTC are hurt with all their magical Nike resources.

BTC Hater? wrote:

. A majority of BTC are hurt with all their magical Nike resources.

Yeah but Nike Nike Nike.

Ciro wrote:

Just curious, why does the lower body weight or body fat cause more injuries?

Genuine question as this isn’t an area of expertise.

The low body fat significantly decreases estrogen levels. For simplicity, estrogen inhibits cells in the body that break down bone called osteoclasts. No estrogen allows the osteoclasts to operate unchecked, and bone being destroyed.

Baby shark wrote:

Ciro wrote:

Just curious, why does the lower body weight or body fat cause more injuries?

Genuine question as this isn’t an area of expertise.

The low body fat significantly decreases estrogen levels. For simplicity, estrogen inhibits cells in the body that break down bone called osteoclasts. No estrogen allows the osteoclasts to operate unchecked, and bone being destroyed.

wouldn't that mean that males are more likely to have stress fractures since they have less estrogen than females?

I don't understand wrote:

Baby shark wrote:

The low body fat significantly decreases estrogen levels. For simplicity, estrogen inhibits cells in the body that break down bone called osteoclasts. No estrogen allows the osteoclasts to operate unchecked, and bone being destroyed.

wouldn't that mean that males are more likely to have stress fractures since they have less estrogen than females?

No, men also have a certain amount of estrogen present, just higher testosterone levels. Both good questions.

Sorry, but that’s wrong. Plenty of women have low body fat, get regular periods, and do not break or have low bone mass. It’s not body fat. It’s an energy imbalance that signals shutting off the reproductive system/low estrogen. If you can’t fuel yourself adequately, you definitely can’t fuel a fetus.

its not body fat. wrote:

Sorry, but that’s wrong. Plenty of women have low body fat, get regular periods, and do not break or have low bone mass. It’s not body fat. It’s an energy imbalance that signals shutting off the reproductive system/low estrogen. If you can’t fuel yourself adequately, you definitely can’t fuel a fetus.

I'd agree with that as well, but realize that body fat is also an energy store- i.e. when it's significantly low, there is signaling as you mentioned to shut off the reproductive system (among other essential neurochemical processes). It's certainly a multifactorial process. Analogously, when men get old and decrease their testosterone levels to have an imbalance of test:estrogen, they develop senescent gynecomastia. We live in amazing machines.

Every elite pro team is basically made up of two groups : the thoroughbreds and the mules . The thoroughbreds win. The mules push the thoroughbreds in practice but eventually break down . Then the team signs some new mules . For the Nike Oregon Project Rupp and Farah were the thoroughbreds and Puskedera, Jenkins, Levins were some of the mules .

For NAZ elite , Bruce and Kellyen Taylor are the thoroughbreds and Alice, and Grayson Murphy were a couple of the mules . Naz will now need to hire a few more mules to push Bruce and Taylor .

Alice is elite . You will see her in Tokyo .