asking for many friends.
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asking for many friends.
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Although their post is brief, Ohia has a point. The top of the line running shoes from 10, 20, 30 years ago are laughable now and no one would think of running in them. Didn’t swimming run into this years ago with a new wetsuit that was super aerodynamic? And all the records got smashed. You gotta evaluate greatness in running within the context of the point in history it took place.
My issue is that the design actually works as a spring, which is something a running shoe shouldn’t do. Especially in the shoe Kipchoge wore this weekend.
The only issue with these shoes is the cost. Yes. They are better than other shoes right now, but the other manufacturers will catch up and running will be better.
And yes, many/most of the shoes 30 years ago were junk. My feet are ruined from wearing them. The running boom of the last decade or two wouldn't have happened 40 years ago because all the hobby joggers would have gotten injured and quit.
fisky wrote:
The only issue with these shoes is the cost. Yes. They are better than other shoes right now, but the other manufacturers will catch up and running will be better.
And yes, many/most of the shoes 30 years ago were junk. My feet are ruined from wearing them. The running boom of the last decade or two wouldn't have happened 40 years ago because all the hobby joggers would have gotten injured and quit.
the cost of the shoe is the issue? you mean what, like equivalent to 2 race entry fees?
not too bad really.
Do vaporfly users prefer cork baseball bats over normal ones?
ohia wrote:
asking for many friends.
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Yes! ?
ohia wrote:
asking for many friends.
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You young WHIPPER SNAPPER! I ride my old mule and refuse to set foot on one of those FOUL steam engines.
My doctor won't give me BLOOD LETTING when I get SICK!
The other day I saw a WOMAN WEARING PANTS!!!
What is this 1500 meters? BRING BACK THE MILE!!!
The world is going to hell in a HAND BASKET!
JohnnyS wrote:
My issue is that the design actually works as a spring, which is something a running shoe shouldn’t do. Especially in the shoe Kipchoge wore this weekend.
As an engineer, I can assure you that every shoe is a spring. These just are better springs. Every mechanical structure can be represented by an equivalent spring and damper.
As long as they have a limit on sole thickness, that will set an upper limit on how "good" of a spring a shoe can be. That will ensure nobody ever makes a big technological leap.
The other limit needs to be how high up the shoe can come on your ankle. You could make a shoe that is massively faster than a vapor fly by continuing the carbon plate up behind the Achilles and creating a strap system around the ankle and shin. Imagine the equivalent to the "blade runner" blade, just on an able bodied runner.
Is EVERY running shoe a spring? Would that include a cross country flat like the Saucony Kilkenny or the old Tiger Marathon?
ohia wrote:
asking for many friends.
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Perhaps the best study looking at effect on time (not energy) was the NYT study using Strava data. For a reminder, the study found people in VFs ran about 4% faster than people in "other shoes." However, the Streak was 3% faster than other shoes, and then several other shoes were 2% or 3% faster than other shoes.
Conclusion: People in VFs (or Nexts) are running faster than similar people not in them.
But why? Maybe the carbon. But probably because they're light (or the lightest) and are not a flat. In order to make such a light shoe with so much foam, the plate is necessary. I think the conclusion will turn out to be (fairly obviously) that light weight and cushioned are the critical factors.
I'll raise you one - how about you just run barefoot. All your competitors can run in the Kilkenny or Tiger Marathon.
fisky wrote:
The only issue with these shoes is the cost. Yes. They are better than other shoes right now, but the other manufacturers will catch up and running will be better.
And yes, many/most of the shoes 30 years ago were junk. My feet are ruined from wearing them. The running boom of the last decade or two wouldn't have happened 40 years ago because all the hobby joggers would have gotten injured and quit.
The biggest running boom was actually through 1972-1984 ... in these shoes you denigrate. Most of these people who paved the way are 55-75 years old; running is not a lifetime sport, regardless of your footwear.
Drainthefecesswamp wrote:
The other limit needs to be how high up the shoe can come on your ankle. You could make a shoe that is massively faster than a vapor fly by continuing the carbon plate up behind the Achilles and creating a strap system around the ankle and shin. Imagine the equivalent to the "blade runner" blade, just on an able bodied runner.
i kinda like this idea. maybe create a sort of carbon "cuff" that encases the ankle, runs under the foot, even perhaps over the top to create some sort of "rebound" function like in a shock. create these in general size runs, and then have the person purchasing come in to get fitted, where they get it molded to their foot/ankle and have the carbon heated and cooled to fit them exactly. Nike could have fitting stations at LRS or Dick's Sporting goods, etc.
kinda like getting fitted for footbeds in ski boots/orthotics
ohia wrote:
asking for many friends.
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You don't have the best analogy here. I have read some articles that suggest steam engines perform as well or better than ICE engines in at least some situations and that the reason the ICE engine prevailed had a lot to do with an anthrax epidemic in 1916 or so and the resulting disappearance of horse watering troughs which is where drivers of steam cars reloaded their watering tanks.
I don't have much of an opinion either way about the Vaporfly other than to think it's ugly as sin. But there have been situations where a sport has banned some sort of equipment for the perceived good of the sport. Other posters have mentioned corked bats in baseball and a kind of swimsuit. There was a brief period when Indy race cars were using turbine engines that were much faster than conventional ones. Eventually restrictions were placed on the turbines so that they did not perform better than conventional engines.
ohia wrote:
fisky wrote:
The only issue with these shoes is the cost. Yes. They are better than other shoes right now, but the other manufacturers will catch up and running will be better.
And yes, many/most of the shoes 30 years ago were junk. My feet are ruined from wearing them. The running boom of the last decade or two wouldn't have happened 40 years ago because all the hobby joggers would have gotten injured and quit.
the cost of the shoe is the issue? you mean what, like equivalent to 2 race entry fees?
not too bad really.
Huh? Like 15-20 race entries in the UK!
Horse drawn carriage is the only fair way to go
John Rodson wrote:
ohia wrote:
asking for many friends.
discus
Perhaps the best study looking at effect on time (not energy) was the NYT study using Strava data. For a reminder, the study found people in VFs ran about 4% faster than people in "other shoes." However, the Streak was 3% faster than other shoes, and then several other shoes were 2% or 3% faster than other shoes.
Conclusion: People in VFs (or Nexts) are running faster than similar people not in them.
But why? Maybe the carbon. But probably because they're light (or the lightest) and are not a flat. In order to make such a light shoe with so much foam, the plate is necessary. I think the conclusion will turn out to be (fairly obviously) that light weight and cushioned are the critical factors.
This.
All of the previous footwear science highlighted that the cushioning/weight ratio was key to a shoe helping the athlete.
You go faster in lighter shoes.
You go faster in shoes that are cushioned (forgiving).
Two rather key racing shoe variables.
You’re welcome.
So these shoes are supposedly faster than running on the fastest track in the lightest spikes?
You people are so gullible.
JohnnyS wrote:
My issue is that the design actually works as a spring, which is something a running shoe shouldn’t do.
Boost material also works as a spring.
Everrun material also works as a spring.
Those materials were built to return energy to the runner. Should those be banned as well?
The OP's point stands here: you're saying that everything up to some arbitrary point that you concocted is ok and anything beyond that is not ok. Why is your arbitrary line in the sand legitimate?