LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

The Pe situation is related to money more than anything. Schools are funded by property taxes and most people who own property don't have kids in the local schools so they don't want to pay high property taxes. So the schools look for wthings to cut as means of saving money and art teachers, PE teachers, sports are often seen as luxuries.

Climbing ropes well is about fitness, true, but it is also about techniqe and practice. In my little school (250 kids) many of use reached the highest level of the Presidents Council for Physical Fitneess. When I was in 8th grade, we practiced climing ropes twice a week and 3 people in my class of about 30, alone, could go up the 20-foot rope in less than 8 seconds - the requirement for full point on the list. I know I did it several times in about 6 seconds. Of course, if you saw how we did it, you'd understand that technique was important. We also used our legs a lot to slither up the rope.

To back up what Jack said, we had p.e. 50 minutes per day, 5 days per week from the time I was in 1st grade until I was a senior in high school. I loved P.E. so much that during my senior year in high school I took two P.E. classes per day (I received permission to take two classes from the guidance counselor in lieu of one study hall). I ran 3-4 miles during that class dring the fall and spring, but during the winter I played badmitton or basketball in both classes. You wouldn't believe how much of a workout badmitton can be! I would sweat like a pig and race around with violent effort to win. It was the code of the time - hard work and honor in victory. I didn't do it, nor any of my friends, for prizes or pay. We did it because America was all about working hard, being competitive, and being proud of simply winning something through effort.

I took a couple p.e. classes two years ago in graduate school with some 22-24 year olds who were recent graduates of that same university (Oregon State) P.E. program. I could not believe how little p.e. they had during their lifetimes. Most had p.e. once per week during elementary school but only had two semesters of it during high school. I was floored. How is that possible? By time I was a 5th grader, I had more p.e. than they did by time they were seniors in high school.

My wife, who teaches p.e., at age 44 says that she is fitter than the vast majority of high schoolers. I believe it because I see how them in malls walking around - most are very overwight. But, I wonder, is it their fault? I suggest it is not. It is society's fault! Cutting p.e. was a common theme in the last 15 years and the result has been disastrous. The Surgeon General's office has recommended a double increase in the time youth should be "active." The Surgeon's recommendations are based upon increases in obesity, reduction of physical activity in the daily lives of kids, and the minimization of p.e. classes students take during their fundamental years.

My questions:

What is the future going to hold for our youth?
Will there be further erosion of overall health and fitness?
What changes can be made, realistically?

Thanks, Tinman

Just to push my own button again !!!. World Mountain Biking Champs are stating here in Rotorua today. Not sure which US Channel is contrcted to show it, but if you guys get to see it you will get a good look at the sort of countryside that Jack Foster trained over and that Arthur said to me he felt was the best training ground in the World.
The Champs are being held on the side of a Mountain that Jack holds the record for running up as well as down.

this thread reminds me; just saw this on ebay...want a Lydiard reference in your hands? Here ya go..

lydiard why proven by time

Lydiard COACHED gold medalists....Davis only "advised" them.

>>What is the meaning of PE?<<

Physical Education.

I don't think that a lot of education happens in PE. Most of the teachers who run PE classes, up until High School and even then...do not know enough information.

Two things changing in Western Canadian Public School System, which is good to see are:

1.) Full credit value for Physical Education, also known as 'Gym'. Where before it was treated more like an elective. AND if you just 'participated' in the past it was the same as going full bore crazy competitive or showing good skill or desire. Although that still stands in a sense, teachers providing grades can make decisions on various factors, because suddenly there is VALUE in the 1 hour block.

2.) Specialization of Schools - partly. There are public school academy style specialization with full credit, full on courses, such as soccer, taught by pros, who have teaching degrees, hockey etc etc. There are also specialized art academys too.

Now the schools are not 'Academys'. However, in amongst their regular curriculum, there are academy sections if you will, within the over-all curriculum.

My son is actually going to a public High school where they make way for elite athletes. They have a swimmer who has competed at the Pan Pacific tourney and has qualified for the Commonwealth games. She goes to school on a different schedule. The neat thing (change) is her Principal was showing her off a little....not too much, but was being prideful.

Somewhere, I am sure, a concerned non-competitive person, who developed curriculum, rolled over in their grave.

To Coleslaw in Victoria
>>What is the meaning of PE?<<

Look north America should run the PE program the way Kenyan public schools are.Forget about PE is for the people who have physical problems.

The PE program was to develop and test between the physiological strength and how capable one can lead that body in competition to win the event.

The PE program started in Greeces,Athens 4000 BC.It is for the Western World and for some reason they lost on the way the meaning of it.

One should do a research for the sake of it and find out what I'm saying.

Henry

To Coleslaw in Victoria
>>What is the meaning of PE?<<

Look, North America should run the PE program the way Kenyan public schools run.Forget about the attitude PE is for the people who have physical problems.

The PE program was to develop and test between the physiological and psychological strength and how one is capable to lead that body in competition to win the event.

The PE program started in Greeces,Athens 4000 BC.It is for the Western World and for some reason they lost on the way the meaning of it.

One should do a research for the sake of it and find out what I'm saying.I thought I should make some changes on my writing to make sense. Also edited for the sake of understanding.

Henry

Ah ! The old Philosophy of Physical Education !
We could all argue here for ages and we would all probably be right !.
I know here in NZ we were not doing things right for quite a number of years and our kids were paying the price. I also, as does Henry, think that this can probably reflect at Olympic level.ie Look at NZ's results at Sydney 2000.
At Senior level (Soph, Jun, Sen) in our High Schools we have pretty got it right BUT in our Junior Schools we do not.
Because of our rapidly rising and very disturbing obesity rate our Government last year legislated that kids had to have at least 11/2 hours 'Physical Activity" a week.
Getting back to the Base discussion about Arthur, he too felt that our kids needed a lot more "Movement" than the odd session here and there and that Specialists needed to be put into Junior schools. That has been addressed to a certain extent but there are those out there who won't have the kids running (The fat kid will be last !!!!). Also a lot of these people do not know how to get the kids running so it becomes enjoyable.
As I get older and too a certain extent more cynical I feel that our kids need to move the biggest Muscle groups in their bodies a lot more and we don't have the luxury of everyone having a Bike or can fit everyone into the gym so what can we do to address that : RUN > We are lucky, I have acres of fields that can be run on in bare feet. What is interesting a lot of my kids actually enjoy it !

To Kim Stevenson,

I was the fat boy when I started running in the middle school,I used to be teast alot with my peer group. I proofed them wrong,that i can be strong boy this is during my middle school years in 1968, when Kipkeino winning Olympic games in Mexico city.

I told them I will be like Kipkeino and sure enough ten years later I did four world records in 1978.Those satires language I put me it into propare used,it became a good psychic for my running.Could the middle school kids do that to each other today?

The middle schools at the age of 13-19 is the right time to do it.Either with cross training as I did,I was a soccer player and i turned into running when i was 18 years old.

We need to think about our physiological fitness is the measurement of health as history tells us.

I knew when I was young that if I don't get physical shape, I will be lazy to do anything and even today.

That tells me physically and mentally I'am out shape too i get to do someting about it.

I was doing it for the sake of physical fitness and slowly it grow to the running world.

The boys who used to teast me,I went home and make a good party for them in 1978.if it wasn't them,to sparked my nerves,who should I proof it to?

Henry

Tinman,
Your training for college sprinters is not that far removed from Clyde Hart's methods at Baylor. It is very aerobic based, with high volume intervals in the fall, gradually cutting down throughout the year. He came upon this system trying to keep Michal Johnson healthy (long history of hamstring injuries). Found out it worked better than what he had been doing.

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Henry Rono wrote:

To Kim Stevenson,

I was the fat boy when I started running in the middle school,I used to be teast alot with my peer group. I proofed them wrong,that i can be strong boy this is during my middle school years in 1968, when Kipkeino winning Olympic games in Mexico city.

I told them I will be like Kipkeino and sure enough ten years later I did four world records in 1978.Those satires language I put me it into propare used,it became a good psychic for my running.Could the middle school kids do that to each other today?

The middle schools at the age of 13-19 is the right time to do it.Either with cross training as I did,I was a soccer player and i turned into running when i was 18 years old.

We need to think about our physiological fitness is the measurement of health as history tells us.

I knew when I was young that if I don't get physical shape, I will be lazy to do anything and even today.

That tells me physically and mentally I'am out shape too i get to do someting about it.

I was doing it for the sake of physical fitness and slowly it grow to the running world.

The boys who used to teast me,I went home and make a good party for them in 1978.if it wasn't them,to sparked my nerves,who should I proof it to?

Henry

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To Braavo Furgi,

Braavo,You understand my point is that you don't let anything to be on your way.Perhaps the negative motivations does not help others,but does help others on ther other end.

When set your tiger eye to meet its target.Step on any stone to reach higher grounds. Use anything to generate your energy to your distination.

My distination was to be a champion like Kipkeino.

Did they believe me? No! I had to sale myself for less price.I didn't take it personal and being depress all-day.I ran faster,so that it doesn't catch me.

Letters, more Letters,
Tempo and vo2 would follow the hill phase. Lydiard refers to tempo as time trials, which are run at 1/4,1/2,3/4 effort according to tables he published.

I note this fine thread is reaching 2,000 posts. Let's hope it continues to be one of the best places to come for conversations about our sport for at least another 2K..

Simple both work for a large enough team of talented runners, but Daniel's is a more personal program and Lydiard's is more for the impersonal approach. Lydiard will probably loose more people to injury but the ones who survive his program will generally succeed.

Survival of the fittest vs. All for One and One for All

Advantage Daniel's in most cases.

Read-em-All,

easy to say that the advantage is to Daniels, but much harder to prove. Assumptions like you state without statistical proff are worthless. The Lydiard approach has been and continues to be very successful across the board. If you think it is impersonal, than it is because of a lack of understanding that any approach HAS to be personalized for it to be successful. Just as Snell was not Magee, you are not the same as I am. Re-read some of Kim, HRE or Nobby's posts. Success whether with Lydiard or Daniels comes with customization for the individual runner.

Glenn

Read em all : As this thread has "metamorphised" (right word ?????) , I find, and have stated that it should be called "Lydiard AND Daniels".
To have Dr Daniels make comment and contribute here is awesome. There are those of us who have had some experiences with Arthur and have been called biased (naturally !)but to have the other side of the equation on board makes this whole deal really interesting.
I am not going to search it out but somewhere I made the comment that the ideal would have been to have a big round table discussion with both Arthur and Dr Daniels there. Sadly that will not happen. We are the next best thing !!!.

I dislike all this 'He is better than this persion because ........ !!".
I feel that if Arthur was here and an athlete said thay wanted to run the best they could Arthur would do his best to have that Athlete run well. I don't believe that Dr Daniels would be any different. After all what are some of us Coaching for ??????.

I can still see Arthur telling a rather overweight gentleman that his first run will be to the Telephone pole that was 50 metres from where they were standing . Hey ! I've told that story before !!!

Anyway I hope I have made some sort of sense here !!!