• Nobby
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/2/2006 1:15PM - in reply to Matt Nokes
      • Nobby
      • Every training schedule should be tailored to the environment, situation, individual and his/her racing schedules. Cross country season is a big thing in NZ and that's pretty much how this whole Lydiard program was developed (as far as I'm concerned). To Arthur, track competition is it; but they have the tradition of track people running cross country races as well as some road relays during the winter--it was natural for something like "marathon conditioning" or "hill training" to come out.

        If you want to run two marathons a year; one in the spring and one in the winter, you'll need to figure out how long it takes for you to prepare for a marathon; what you need (speed, strength, endurance, etc.) and how long it takes for each to be developed. Bear in mind; it's perhaps harder to work on your endurance for the winter marathon because of the summer heat. Likewise, it would be a bit difficult to work on your speed during the winter.

        As for the schedule, as I said, that one week of schedule is one representative of 52. Any type of workout should be worked along as you get used to that type of exercise, in both valume and effort. For example, if you're not used to doing 800m reps, do them shorter. If you're not used to running 6 times 400; do them 4 times... Forget any specific times; just do them fast enough but not so fast that you'll be struggling at the end of the session. After two or three weeks, you'd get used to this type of workout; you can carefully increase the volume AND intensity. So, yes, to a point, it should get tougher as you move along; until actual competitons get nearer and "rest" becomes more important than working hard.

        And, yes, I personally believe cross country phase if extremely important for overall development as a runner. Arthur used to say, "cross country running is one of the most enjoyable part of your training program." It is also, as far as I'm concerned, one of the most important, yet, neglected to be mentioned, part of overall program.
    • Kim Stevenson
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/3/2006 1:33PM - in reply to Nobby
      • Kim Stevenson
      • Nobby, one of the scary things here in NZ is Cross Country is quietly fading away. Participants are dwindling. A huge number of the current bunch of runners don't like "getting' their feet wet and muddy. They prefer the Road races etc.
        I am generalising here as we still have a hard core but the numbers im races are just not there any more. Many clubs cannot access the Farms etc they used to (We have some 'dumb' legislation regarding 'responsibility' and 'safety'). Much of the Cross Country racing is done on Park courses not farms.
        Our local club has some awesome Cross country running but you would never look to go out and run a good time in the Races. They are just too tough. But what amazing 'conditioners'. But the average age of competitors in our local races would be 'over 40'.
        Another aspect that is scary is the general 'fitness' level of kids. They don't walk or ride bikes to school anymore.
        When I arrived back in this town my school had about 500 bike racks. They filled everyday. Now we have 4.
        The Boy's High School across town had a special Bike 'cage' that could hold around 1000 bikes. Now they have nothing.
        My school allocates 2 hrs a week to Physical Education per week. For a substantial number of our kids that is the only exercise they get in their lives. My colleagues in other schools are saying the same things.
        I made a statement to our Board of Trustees just 3 days ago about this very subject. Finishing it off by saying I was doing better in the Fitness tests when I do them with the kids at now 57 than I did at 35. The only kids who can run faster and longer than me in the school are my athletes !!!
        22 years ago I was not even in the same league as many of the students !!!!!.
        I note that someone has bought up this very subject in the Igloi thread regarding US kids.
        The cynic in me says the Western World is in big trouble !!!!.
    • Nobby
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/3/2006 4:58PM - in reply to Kim Stevenson
      • Nobby
      • Kim:

        Thanks for the (sad) insight. Just had a lengthy chat with Chris Pilone. Living proof that the Lydiardism can be applied to different field of endurance sports.
    • Glenn McCarthy
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/3/2006 5:35PM - in reply to Nobby
      • Glenn McCarthy
      • Kim,

        it even gets worse. A few years back I worked to get approval from my boss to be able to volunteer to help coach the HS cross country team of a school that was just over a mile from where I worked. The assitant coach had a good deal of enthusiasm, but a general lack of direction. He reassured me that we would work with plans that I drew up using a generalized Lydiard approach. I had not anticipated a road block when I was introduced to the head coach, a lady who was also the basketball and soccer (her true love) coach. But she had had knee problems and was limited to 35 minutes of running. So NO ONE on the team ran more than that. When I suggested 60 minute runs, the coach not only said no, she cut the workout to 30 minutes and had a water stop at 1/2 way. So they ran out 10 minutes, those who ran faster waited at the water stop, then stopped at the water stop on the way back. Needless to say, I was running my 10 kms at the same pace the number one male was running at 5km. Pretty sad.
        The head coach could not understand why the team finished last in every meet.

        Glenn
    • Henry Rono
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/16/2006 1:17PM - in reply to Kim Stevenson
      • Henry Rono
      • To Kim Stevenson wrote

        "The only kids who can run faster and longer than me in the school are my athletes !!!
        22 years ago I was not even in the same league as many of the students !!!!!.
        I note that someone has bought up this very subject in the Igloi thread regarding US kids.
        The cynic in me says the Western World is in big trouble !!!!."

        You have an eye that can see and I'm please you are encouraging them to move up.I think Western World youth needs more physical training than even third world youngsters.I have the reasons to back it up.

        I have seen it and work with them,but the head coach says 30-45 minutes runs enough and later in the competition, where are the points for the team or winning? What are they thinking.You know they don't have enough strength and endurance and you asking for points and winning. You just giving them 30 minutes runs.Are you crazy! please giving me a break!

        Henry
    • Kim Stevenson
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/16/2006 1:35PM - in reply to Henry Rono
      • Kim Stevenson
      • Henry, an honour and a privilege to have you comment on my post. Sometimes here in NZ I feel amongst Physical Educators that I am a lone voice. Many feel that running is 'too hard', that kids 'don't like it because it hurts' and look at other methods to lift kids fitness levels. Anything from 'Aerobics' to 'playing games', My argument is all activities require you to be on your feet and all games require running. So why not run.
        I picked up a new kid the other day who wants to run, looks to have potential. She asked about how fast we run in training. I said we enjoy our training first and foremost. How fast we run a particular course we don't worry about.
        The only chalenge I put to her was that on a particular hill, no mountain biker has ever beaten us up to the top. That is going to be a real challenge next week as we have the World Mountain Bike Champs here in Rotorua. Keep an eye out everyone the Courses are spectacular.
    • MR. Happy Woo Hoo
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/16/2006 11:10PM - in reply to HRE
      • MR. Happy Woo Hoo
      • Wow I cant believe this thread still lives. I havent been on in MONTHS, and it was old when i left.
    • jtupper
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/16/2006 11:36PM - in reply to Kim Stevenson
      • jtupper
      • Kim -- We have fallen way behind in Physical Education in the schools and I blame that for most of our health and lack of athletes problems. I had PE class an hour a day , 5 days a week, all 4 years of high school, and 10 of us in my graduating class of 550 reached the highest level in fitness tests (included 32 bar dips, 18 chin-ups, 20-foot rope climb in under 6 seconds, 2 runs for time, a 150 yd swim for time and a couple other items). Of those 10, 3 were competing in the Olympic games 6 years after leaving high school -- 2 in sports they didn't do well in in High School. Then schools started dropping PE classes (often because the parents didn't want to pay for PE teachers, and those same parents now pay way more to join some aerobic dance class, and their kids have nothing but a dream to become a pro baseball, hockey, basketball or football player). Now we hear about schools not wanting to fund art or some other subjects that everyone needs to have some knowledge about. Pretty soon we will be so specialized that we won't be able to read a newspaper without any sign of knowing what anyone is talking about, unless it is in our specialty. Sorry to branch out like this, but it is most troubling that we aren't exposed to lots of things -- if we were we might find out some of us can even run quite well
    • Bob Wildes
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/17/2006 6:41AM - in reply to jtupper
      • Bob Wildes
      • Ten of you climbed a 20 foot rope in 6 seconds or less? That is amazing.

        There was a time when I could do 22 dead hang pullups, but I doubt that I ever climbed a 20 foot rope under 12 seconds.
    • jtupper
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/17/2006 9:12AM - in reply to Bob Wildes
      • jtupper
      • We were allowed to jump as high up the rope as we could at the start -- didn't start sitting on the floor -- so probably more like a 12 or 13 foot climb
    • Bob Wildes
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/17/2006 9:53AM - in reply to jtupper
      • Bob Wildes
      • PE requirements were the same when I attended High School and I recall hearing that PE was scaled back soon thereafter. I was under the impression that PE was making a bit of a comeback in the public schools.
    • Letters, More Letters!
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/17/2006 9:58AM - in reply to jtupper
      • Letters, More Letters!
      • Have two questions regarding the lydiard system, one, how do you pronounce his name because I've only seen it written, of course how else would I see it, two, with the Training set up. Where in relation to the Hill Phase do these workouts go: Tempo, VO2 Max?
    • Kim Stevenson
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/17/2006 1:39PM - in reply to jtupper
      • Kim Stevenson
      • Dr Daniels, awesome to see you on here. Your input is invaluable. I chuckled when I read your comments on the Physical Education Standards, especially the chin ups. Arthur was still doing his daily chin ups up until his stroke affected him. Between the 2 of you you would have had a "field day" with discussing PE in schools.
        I was very negative when I wrote about our PE programmes and was really commenting on our kids (under 15 years) programmes. Just last year the Government declared 'compulsory' physical activity in Junior Schools. Minimum 11/2 hours a week but at least it is a start.
        Luckily, for the kids older than that we have an "Academic" as well as "practical" programmes (A National Currriculum))
        We teach very basic Anatomy/Ex Phys/biomechanics and analysis so the kids can learn what applies to what in their various activities. The biggest Unit we do is with our Seniors who have to design/implement and evaluate a Training programme. This operates over 10 weeks.
        As you can imagine we have had some outstanding work.
        Problem with our parents is they don't rate the subject so we do not get the numbers we want taking it. Yet when National surveys are done of our what you guys would call Sophmores, Jumiors and Seniors the kids say the subject they want to take the most is Physical Education.
        Hopefully we can gradually bring our kids back into the fold as Parents begin to understand.
    • Kim Stevenson
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/17/2006 1:46PM - in reply to HRE
      • Kim Stevenson
      • Rich, the Mountain Biking is being held North of Town on Mount Ngongotaha. However, the Teams are Training in the Forest and just yesterday the Belgian Team came down 'our' hill just as we were starting our run.
    • HRE
      • RE: LYDIARD OR DANIELS? 8/17/2006 2:19PM - in reply to Letters, More Letters!
      • HRE
      • Lid ee ard. Arthur wouldn't VO2 max if it bit him. There's a whole section earlie discussing tempo runs. Essentially, some of the shorter runs in the base phase are faster than the longer ones and there are time trials as you come out of the phase. But Arthur's system really doesn't use these concepts as people do today.