Ditto Nobby on the 20 minute jog for warmups.
When I stated the above about what we did, I had a good 2 years or more consistent running behind me.
People starting out or in their first year need to adjust accordingly.
I have tried to dig out one of my diaries from "way back" when I started out but seemed to have 'buried' them somewhere.
I am not sure of exactly what we did but I know we jogged nothing less than a mile and did no more than 4 to 6 strides and would have jogged same as we warmed up, if not a little more.
As our overall fitness increased so did the 'volume' (if that is the right word).
Once again : You must work out what suits you.
Ditto Nobby on the 20 minute jog for warmups.
My warmups and cooldowns ARE my "base". :)
I appreciate the kind evaluation. I have always hoped to be able to cut through some of the confusion as to what different types of trainig do for a runner. The use of the information that I put forth is there to be used in whatever way a coach sees fit. I provide specific workouts because many have asked for that and I figure it is probably better than not providing anything specific. Hopefully the programs I propose are better than just letting any coach of any amount of experience or understanding start from scratch. For the very knowledgable coach I still hope I am able to clarify what various types of training can do for a runner, but the coach is certainly free to decide how much, how often and at what time in the season to do different things. By the way, I am not too great on a computer. Reminds me of the younger guy who sat by me at a football game and was talking about all the things his generation had, that we didn't -- man on the moon, cell phones, computers everywhere, etc. In response to that a friend of mine from my generation responded, yeah we made all those things for you, what are you making for the next generation? Live it up
So was I close with other points?
Lydiard was, believe it or not, always big on scientific approach. He once said that, with everything else being equal, scientific ones will always beat unscientific ones. Do appreciate all your feedback and input, doc!
I believe that Coach Wetmore is a smart guy who continues to learn and grow. One thing he learned is to hold the reigns on his talented guys so that they would not burn out their bodies prematurely. It is very true that collegiate athletes tend to compete in practice often, and at the level of talent at schools like CU, it could turn out to be brutal. I believe that Coach Wetmore's teams are now preparing better and better as he learns more. The effect of meeting Lydiard may have influenced him too.
I found it interesting 3-8 years ago that runners from CU were running faster distance runs than elite runners who live(d) in Boulder. People like Deek, Barrios, and Shorter were saying they did the majority of their mileage at 1:30 per mile over their 10k pace (and at Boulder's altitude, that means they ran 6:15-6:30 per mile) while the CU guys were running 5:45 and faster dailyy. I have been told that the CU guys have slowed down considerably, as much as 30 seconds per mile. This is from a runner in Boulder, but not from the horses mouth, per se. Regardless, I am supportive of Coach W. and I have confidence that his teams will perform their best in big meets when it counts most. I think the guys he coaches will say they enjoy running for him. He is a leader, no doubt, and that is important in the bigger picture of sport.
I was out running through the beautiful autumn air today (temperature dropped by 30 degrees in 3 days in MN!), just nice and easy, reminiscing what Lydiard told me first time when I got together with him in 1981; when I was young, so much younger than today (HELP!), I was just like everybody else and asked him how fast I should be doing my long runs. “Whatever the pace you can manage,” was his reply.
The problem with running by set numbers, be it pace or effort or whatever, is that on any given day, you may or may not have the same “performance level” as other time. In my case, I could never train very fast for my conditioning but when I started doing other elements, hills and reps and time trials, my time came down very quickly—almost a minute and a half for 3 miles. Bill Baillie told me, and Kim Stevenson can clarify this for me, that he couldn’t run the long runs as fast as others (Snell got down to 2:10 for Waitak but Baillie stayed around 2:20~2:30 range). Whereas, in the case of Dick Quax, he could train during his conditioning close to 5-minute-mile pace even for his long runs and moved on to the track workout—for someone like him, he really didn’t need “transition” like hill training phase. Now either way, I was almost 2 minutes behind Quakie but the point is that my times throughout the season would fluctuate a lot. I could not simply take my five best 5k times and get average time and calculate my LT pace or Steady State pace or ½ effort time or whatever.
To me the best formula was ¼ effort, ½ effort and ¾ effort (I know Bill Bowerman wasn’t too impressed with that system…). If anything, it’s always better to go too slowly than too fast. Whatever the pace-calculation might tell you, if you can’t continue with the following days’ training comfortably, you’ll know you’d gone out too fast. Why force yourself to stick to some calculation when you know it’s not working? That’s silly. If you have a hard time figuring it out, you need to develop your “Inner Coach” more.
Just go by how you feel. Stay at the pace that you can manage. As you get stronger, what once was anaerobic pace will now become aerobic and you’ll notice you’re running much faster aerobically than you’d ever imagined you could.
I’ll tell you another rather interesting “number” story. Lydiard always used to give this bogus number for maximum oxygen debt for the argument sake. Based on that, he calculate why developing aerobic capacity is more effective than endless repeats and anaerobic type training. It works out rather nicely. When I was working on the script for the Lydiard training video, I sent the script to Peter Snell for his review. “This number is all wrong,” he came back. Mind you, he’s one of the experts on this (PhD in exercise physiology). So he kindly corrected all the numbers and readjusted the chart for me. Guess what? The result came back almost exactly the same as far as the effectiveness of aerobic development is concerned—or better yet, if anything, the more-up-to-date calculation revealed that the Lydiard principle was even more effective than he was preaching!
When I took coach Squires to the airport after the Twin Cities marathon, he gave me a copy of training article from 1980. With it, there was the list of athletes who finished top 3 in each event beyond 800m at Olympic Trial. In the article, there was a section to explain different types of training. Under intervals/repetitions, it had separate column and said (1) long intervals and (2) short intervals. That was it! With such narrow understanding of pacing and all, they were running some 10~15 seconds faster for 5000m than today (except for a handful of individuals). Now what does that tell ya? I’m not against science at all. Somebody said something about giving a correct training method to a bad coach is like giving a gun to a criminal. Well, with a wrong perspective, scientific approach to training is like worrying about microscopic germs around you. I don’t know how you can eat or breathe at all!
Sorry I always seem to go on and on. Snookie, I didn’t mean to hog the thread…
You need to get moving on getting your mileage up! ;o)
Fantastic thread! Thanks everyone. I am learning lots!
My warmup and cooldown comments were semi serious! 8k easy + 4x200 strides + whatever + 2k easy....love the fact that I killed 2 birds with one stone: Warmed up and cooled down AND aerobically conditioned myself with 10k easy total. Sometimes I'll do 60min easy + whatever + 15min easy....these may not be "race" warmup / cooldowns, but in training, I love the idea of "long" warmups, serving a double purpose.
Science! The musician John Cage had many crazy ideas that were much more interesting on paper than to actually hear. Why am I thinking of Mr Horwill right now? :(
I always believed that 50min + a few strides was better than 60min and no strides ANY DAY! :)
I've always believed that speedwork is misunderstood and abused by many. It must always exhilerate, not devastate, and like "volume", it must be taken in many mnay careful steps....1500s at tempo pace with short recovery in winter leading to 1500s at 3k pace with long recovery in summer....400s at 3k pace with short recovery in winter leading to 400s at 800 pace with long recovery in summer.....
Sorry I've rambled a bit. It's late.
I did 16min jog + strides + 4 mile tempo (23:34) + 15min jog today, and looking forward to 20k tomorrow morning. Hey, wouldn't Arthur be proud? :)
Skujie boy: Gave me a HUGE laugh with your comment on coach Howell! He's cool... Love to meet the man.
I think you got the right idea on intervals. One of my favourite stories is Al Lawrence. He gave a workout to one of his athletes (I believe it was a "she") and she came back and said to him, "But I can do these!" He said, "That's the whole idea!" No need to puke on track. Keep it clean.
I should state that I admire Horwill, he has many intetesting ideas, not afraid to think outside the box. BUT, who has exactly embraced his ideas for long periods and not just survived, but prospered? Even the Coeseses greatly adapted Frankies ideas.
Now, I'm not a Daniels expert, and I breifly skimmed thru the book. Would it be fair to say thet Daniels is also a fan of "physiological" training? ie The 4 zones, aercond to ancap? Adapting the Coe / Martin stuff into much more user friendly ways?
Interesting that Coe training does NOT strictly follow the 4 zones that the Big Book spends so much time focussing on! :)
I have tremendous respect for coach Howill. I think he's done a tremendous job with Tim Hutchingson (running, that is; not broadcasting). One of the things we, this British Miler's Club gentleman and myself, would love to do a couple of years ago, was to get Lydiard and Frank Howill in the same room and see which one comes out alive.
Quite often coaches get such strong opinion on themselves as well as others that they absolutely insist that they do it their way and others do completely different program. In a way, Lydiard was no exception. I remember one day jogging with him and we were making fun of Frantz Stampfle being such an interval guy when apparently the actul fact is that Stampfle was having his guys run quite a bit of distance work as well. Same with Lydiard and Cerutty going at each other when their programs were probably more similar than not (no, HRE, don't start "Lydiard or Cerutty" thread!).
Frank Howill sounds like a character and when you really analize it, his program has a lot of similarlities to the Lydiard program than not. I've read his article about hopping on one leg to work on explosive power. Well, that's Lydiard hill training. He often gives crap about Lydiard's 100MPW training but, really, even if 100 is an extreme, give me an example of someone running at elite level who would do better with, say, 25MPW (the number it seems quite a few letsrun readers like to refer to) than 50, or 60, or 80...or 120? No, I'll take it back. It's not so much of those numbers but the fact that you need to develop very good solid aerobic base. I would doubt very much coach Howill would disagree with that. Some people's optimum distance might be 80, others might have to run 120. A few could even get away with 50, or they may have to stay 50 or so for whatever the reason (don't give me checking out the internet as a reason!).
I would love to learn more about just what the heck he advocate. I'll bet, when you look closely to it, they are not as wacky as they may sound. People still laugh at me when try to perform Lydiard pogo stick hill bounding! Of course, they used to throw rocks at them when he was training an 800m runner upto 100 miles a week! (Wait, they still do! ;o))
Nobby, I am glad that you have addressed the 'numbers' game,
it was starting to worry me. It is interesting how people want to put a number to something.I find that I too can get into that trap.
Just yesterday I had my athletes doing their Timetial.
First question that is usually asked is "What pace".
I have learned to jump the gun and discuss (very quickly !!)with them what we want to achieve for the day. As it turned out yesterday was foul here with freezing wind and rain, so I said "Ease into it, get the rhythm of the pace you feel comfortable with and lets go !"
I had a pretty good idea in my head what they should run considering the conditions. But kept that pretty much too myself as I know one of them would set out to beat that time !.
I followed closely on my Bike (We do these on smooth trails) and along with encouraging words I did time checks at various points to see how they were going. All I said was 'Good stuff, keep it rolling"
My hands were 'frozen' by 11/2 miles, so I knew that my guestimation was going to be pretty close.
I turned out to be "bang on" with that guestimation and the kids were delighted as they said they felt the "effort" was
pretty much correct. I know that in good conditions they would have run 20 secs faster but they are coming to the realisation that you must adjust training to the day.
I also concur with Nobby on the long runs " “Whatever the pace you can manage,” That is what I learned from Bill Baillie and Arthur.
I mentioned earlier in the thread my experiences with long runs.
Than can I start a "Cerutty vs. Horwill" thread. Or how about "Bowerman vs. Nakamura?" Or, just for you, "King Kong vs. Godzilla?"
Just FYI; they do have "King Kong vs. Godzilla" already. Incidentally, that was my first ever theater movie and I absolutely fell in love with that giant reptile... That was a set of two movies for kids and the other one was 101 Dalmatians". What a combination...
By the way, if you have seen the movie, it appears that King Kong won the battle but in reality, Godzilla doesn't swim on the surface of water. He would come out of the ground in the following movie, "Mothra vs. Godzilla". Now THAT is a classic!
Sorry, I had to digress...
The original 33 Kong. That's the one! Out on dvd next month. The music in that movie.....but I digress.
Someone started Galloway vs Daniels!!! :)
But did you ever see "Bambi vs. Godzilla?" A true classic.
Did Bambi win? (These digressions are neccessary sometimes.)
Tim Hutchinson didn't train 100% the Horwill way according to our British friends who have said that Tim ran 90 miles per week and skipped many of the interval sessions that Horwill prescibed. Tim said there was no way he could do all the intensity that Horwill asked him to do. I also saw neat article in The Harrier Magazine about 22 years ago about Tim. It showed that his weekly workouts were a longer run (15 miles), a 600m hill rep session, and repeat 1ks on the track. Mileage 80-90 per week.
So it was like Salazar-Mary Slaney type of situation...? Did I say that?
I was asked by a group called Japan Running Academy to write a tribute to Arthur Lydiard for their biannual publication. Others included people like Kenji Kimihara, a 1966 Boston marathon champion, and Morio Shigematsu, the former world record holder in the marathon in 1965 (breaking Abebe’s record) so it’s a tremendous honor to be a part of this. Another contributor is Mifuyu Komatsu who translated “Running with Lydiard” in Japanese in 1992. She just sent me her draft and I’d like to share a part of her piece:
“…all this time, I’ve been thinking the Lydiard method is for elite runners, not for middle-of-packers like me (she’s a 2:45 marathon runner). So I always looked for some “how-to” sample schedule or copy of some other people’s schedule, picking pieces here and there. My eye-opener came when I visited New Zealand and met with this 70-year-old gentleman. He started running when he was 60 and was actually competing for time in the masters competitions. He handed me a book called “Running with Lydiard” and said, “This is my bible.”
A few days later, I had an opportunity to actually attend one of Lydiard’s clinics at local high school. He preached the importance of understanding the principle of training program, “whys” of each and every day’s training. It made me realize how superficial my understanding of training was. You need to understand the fundamentals of training; that’s the only way to actually “apply” the program to your own needs and situation. Overnight, I became aware that I was only chasing quick-fix formulas.
…I trained under former athlete of Lydiard for 12 months. First thing I learnt from him was; what Lydiard meant by “train by how you feel.” Whenever we went for a run, he always told me to “run comfortably” or “relax but push yourself just a little bit” etc. Everything was bogus. I was almost lost at first because up until then, all my training was done by minutes-per-kilometer style. Upon my question, he replied; “You need to control your training, not training schedule controlling you. Your biorhythm changes everyday. There’s no way you can predetermine how fast you should train.”
…as I realized how much more fun it is to just go out and train as I felt like; how much more fun it is to “feel” my running by heart, not by my head; and how much more exciting it is to participate races with such in-tuned state of mind; then I realized that the Lydiard method is such a creative act of freeing your mind from big-headed number games…”
Her article was concluded with comments from Lorraine Moller: “…even though Lydiard himself has put down certain numbers such as 100 miles a week, the most important thing is not to follow the numbers, but how your body’s reacting to certain training. I always tell people to sharpen your “Inner Coach”. You need to develop the ability to understand how your body is reacting, what your body is requesting as the next step, etc. If you sharpen your “Inner Coach”, and understand the principle of the Lydiard method, you’ll eventually understand the pattern that suits you best.”
Now I’m happy that I made my point from someone you would think more reliable than a stinkin’ Jap who runs in that racing flat crap!
Ouch! Nobby, we love you too much for that. Besides, I run in that racing flat crap too. :>)
Lovely, lovely posts Glenn, tinman, DRE, jtupper and (esp) the Nobzilla.
I think one point you mentioned (a few pages back) is quite valid: you should update your own website (www.fivecircles.org) soon; and if you can move some of your own material from elsewhere onto your site, so much the better. Also, did I read that you and Snell were doing a tour in Japan? Any touring coming up here in the states?
I think your point about running to effort or running to feel is esp valid for runners who cannot be full time athletes. Those who run with jobs and families and everything else will inevitably have days when they're sleep deprived, pooped and beaten up and the legs just aren't all there; but a good day will usually come up.
Oh, and for you Minnesotans: congrats on the Little Brown Jug today.