LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

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  • Iwas there2
    14 years ago 07/30/2005 7:35am CDT
    re: Kim Stevenson
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    Kim,

    Now that is stuff that I could read all day. I love it!

    Knobby,

    Lydiard. I put together a training program and train a large group of couch potatoes who want to get fit, key is , they want it. 4% complained and quit, the rest just work themselves right on through the program, it's inspiring to watch.

    There is no BS, no Oprah running Chicago stories.

    It's pretty much what Lydiard coached newbies.
  • similar theories
    14 years ago 07/30/2005 8:30am CDT
    re: Iwas there2
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    Arthur Lydiard clearly stated at talks that you keep the same workouts while decreasing the volume. The intensity is maintained unless you personally decide to go harder. Within 2-3 weeks of a major race that is where this does start. If you go further out from that time frame, of course workouts are harder. Listening to him speak was a treat because he always enjoyed watching coaches burn out athletes right before their big meet. He knew his runners would be ready to run with their taper! The intensity does not increase but is at least maintained and the volume decreased. You would not and should not increase intensity meaning faster intervals or less recovery within 2 to 3 weeks of the workout. Hopefully that clarifies a misconception of the part of that individual.
  • Successful Schedule
    14 years ago 07/30/2005 8:58am CDT
    re: similar theories
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    This is simple schedule that can be maintained and you can do all year successfully: (this one in particular geared toward high school but can easily make it college of elite) As Daniels states avoiding injury is the key and not all runners work on the same system. Soft surfaces is important but may not have that benefit. (plus 75% on soft surfaces) Stick to roads and avoid concreate at all cost.

    Long workout grass or trail preferred or even a track if necessary depending on its condition
    (repeats 800m or less)
    Included warmup, drills and strides, cooldown
    Arthur Lydriad did not calculate that as mileage hence he would tell you his runners were well over 100 miles! (count this do it is a stressor on the body)
    Workout pace is key and most coaches agree along with Daniels you want a runner to start slower to be able to hit the marks consistently as shown with Daniels chart the quality of running hard is maintained and not lessen with going too fast too early-basically means no benefits)

    Easy day (45-60 minutes) (included drills and strides)
    If you can get build a runner to two days of an hour plus running their economy and strength will be great for the end of the season.

    Tempo/Threshold (included drills and strides)
    depending on the race length 5K you can go 3-5 miles and 10K 6-8 miles basically you are running 30 seconds than race pace and usually good to a 1 mile warmup and then cutdown an example of 5:20 runner 6:30-6:10-5:50 then another 2 to 4 miles and usually cooldown 1 or 2 miles)
    At the end of the season it is usually
    6:30-6:10-5:50-5:50-2 mile cooldown.

    Short workout (600m or less) Same idea as above
    Go on the track the last couple of weeks to get the turnover faster

    Easy day (30-45) included drills and strides)

    Saturday Usually a race

    Sunday Recovery 1 hour or more nice and slow
    include strides
  • Snookie
    registered
    14 years ago 07/30/2005 9:48am CDT
    re: Successful Schedule
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    I understand what you are trying to say Successful, but my only problem with that is, Where is the long run? Lydiard has his guys doing a long run all the time until the last few weeks of the year. Also, Nobby, do you have any lydiard literature that you could post for us? - Snookie
  • Successful Schedule
    14 years ago 07/30/2005 9:58am CDT
    re: Snookie
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    The long run is on sunday 1 hour or more. It depends on who are working with a high school freshmen, beginning runner in junior year of high school, experienced high school runner 3rd or 4th which would mean 10 to 12 miles, college freshmen which would mean 12-13 miles or about 90 minutes, or experienced college runner 3rd or 4th year
    14-16 miles or about 1:45-2hours.
  • PDJ
    registered
    14 years ago 07/30/2005 9:59am CDT
    re: Chuck Runs
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    I was fortunate enough to attend a running camp in which Lydiard demonstrated his drills. The 50 sprint-50 float workout was set up in this manner. 2 cones were set 50 meters apart. two additional cones were set 25 meters behind each cone. To make it clearer the inside cones were 50 meters apart. If you measured from outer cone to outer cone you would have 100 meters. You are to sprint from one inside cone to another. You ease up and jog to the outer cone. YOu jog back to the inside cone and sprint another 50 meters. Your rest interval is very short. By the time you slow up you are almost to the outer cone. A 25 meter jog back is not too much. Lydiard stated that you must sprint as fast as you can. He suggested for a high school kid-perhaps 16-20 sprints. Of course as suggested above by the time you have done this workout you would have gone through the other phases of his program.
  • Oh jees...
    14 years ago 07/30/2005 7:38pm CDT
    re: JimFiore
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    Well without name dropping, Jack Daniels coached me for many years. The one thing I can tell you is that the LEVEL OF QUALITY IS TREMENDOUS. It takes one by surprise. It is one thing to "read through" the workout schedules, but it is another thing to run them. Let me tell you, D.R.F. does lots of quality first, before the interval work. AND it is much harder TO DO than to "read" in a schedule. I think runners tend to gloss over the REP workouts as "strides". Listen up, REP work at mile pace for 400m up to 800m in a workout is not a series of strides. It is very, very hard work. I guess the best way to describe it is that it takes a whole lot of concentration to complete these REP workouts. Despite the full recovery, they are tough.

    It is true that many systems can work for the individual. JD is very open minded to personal preferences in mileage etc. But don't blend everything together. They (JD vs Lydiard) are VERY DIFFERENT approaches. I think Lydiard would argue that such speed work early would "destroy" aerobic potential, because of "lactate".. But let me tell you that nothing was further than the truth for me. I ran my best times on less mileage with JD all the way from 1500 up to 15K. Before JD I was a 100+ mpw guy and I went down to 50-60 mpw with far better results, and far less injuries.

    That's just my experience with it. But trust me if you truly follow D.R.F. then you will realize that JD and Lydiard are opposite ends of the spectrum. JD is open to mileage, but KNOW THAT HE IS ALL ABOUT QUALITY. And quality running "hurts" so most runners shy away from it.
  • johnny carson
    14 years ago 07/30/2005 7:39pm CDT
    re: Oh jees...
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    CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.....BUT, ARTHUR COACHED SEVERAL OLYMIPIC GOLD MEDALISTS AND DANIELS COACHED ZERO.
  • HRE
    14 years ago 07/30/2005 7:43pm CDT
    re: Kim Stevenson
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    I've come to this thread a bit late and like Nobby I'm not real familiar with Jack Daniels. But since the subject of the pace of distance runs in the Lydiard program comes up here I thought I'd toss in a few anecodtes.
    As Nobby and Kim point out, there is no prescription against fast running in the Lydiard system. But there's also none against slow running. The guys who did fast runs were doing those because they had gotten fit enough so that those runs weren't gut busting. Arthur would never have prescribed that someone do a 55 minute 10 mile, or a 65, or an 85. But if you were running 75 when he knew you could handle 65, he might have told you to go faster. On the other hand, he'd never allow to you to flog yourself to get that 65 if doing so left you gasping. So while he frequently spoke against "LSD" and had runners who ran at quick paces, a lot of the runs aren't particularly intense.
    For example, in "Golds Aren't Easy", Richard Tayler says that when he trained alone he usually went at a six minute pace, but that he often trained with friends and went noticeably slower then. He actually did a fair amount of running with Arthur then. Tayler had bests of 3:58, 27:46 and 2:16 at the time and Arthur would have been 56 or 57. So I don't think Tayler would have been pushing really hard on those runs.
    Barry Magee told me that when he had his brief fling as South Korea's national distance coach, he was given all of the country's top marathoners. The slowest had done 2:25. He sent them out to run 20 miles at "their best aerobic speed." He said they ran the distance in 2 hours and that was "too fast." He said that to get them to run at the correct pace he had to tell them to "jog."
    Arthur never once told me to do my distance runs faster than I was doing them, but he frequently cautioned me against "racing" my training. I believe that he came to understand that most of us overestimate how fast we can run while remaining aerobic.
  • Oh jees...
    14 years ago 07/30/2005 8:03pm CDT
    re: HRE
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    One more thing about runners and discipline.
    Over the years I have realized that distance runners in general are very undisciplined people.

    How could I say that?

    Well there's a difference between dedicated and disciplined. I was very dedicated before working with Daniels, and even thought I knew a thing or two about running. I followed the mantra "mileage is king", "you gotta find what works","blend everything","run hard when you feel like it", "run easy when you feel bad","Speed early is bad", "Lactate will destroy aerobic capacity" etc, etc. But I wasn't truly disciplined until I got the workouts and followed them. Then I realized how hard it is to be disciplined... not run too fast, not run too slow, not run too long, not run too short, run exactly mile pace, run exactly 5k pace etc. etc.

    I think whatever approach one adopts, the attitudes of "you gotta find what works","blend everything","run hard when you feel like it", "run easy when you feel bad","Speed early is bad", "Lactate will destroy aerobic capacity" often works against the runner. The majority of what I see here in the States at least is a large group of "uncoachable" runners, because they can't follow orders from a coach, and keep any semblence of true discipline. So many talented runners are "fly by the seat of their pants" and that is sad.

    Mileage is not king, Quality is not king, DISCIPLINE IS KING.

    A good example of amazing discipline is the training of Carlos Lopes. Read up on him if you get a chance..a true master.

    Too many runners today are simply, uncoachable.
  • lydiard man
    14 years ago 07/31/2005 6:18am CDT
    re: Oh jees...
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    Lydiard advised speed throughout the year. Pure speed or alactic training. He didn't like anaerobic work throughout the year, there is a big big difference.

    Also aerobic doesn't equal easy running always. That's a common misconception with americans.
  • Daniels Olympic Medalists
    14 years ago 07/31/2005 7:12am CDT
    re: Oh jees...
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    Wow! That was the stupidest posting saying Daniels had nothing to show for results. Here is a part of the list to start:

    Jim Ryun 1500m 1968 Silver Medalist
    Joan Benoit Samuelson Marathon 1984 Gold Medalist
    Joaquim Cruz 800m 1984 800m Gold Medalist

    2:08-2:09 Marathoners (A significant feat for Americans)
    Alberto Salazar, Doug Padilla, Ken Martin, and later Jerry Lawson

    He was in charge of Athletics West in the 1980s and
    later on the Nike Farm Team. There were many successful athletes he coached. Look through his book! He is not a person looking for recognition.

    Jack Daniels does give Lydriad credit for laying the foundation and he simply applied the science. These are basically similar theories except Daniels has the science. He can explain exaclty what needs to be done for success including that VO2.
  • Oh jees...
    14 years ago 07/31/2005 8:50am CDT
    re: lydiard man
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    That's the point.

    Daniel's REP work is what Lydiard would term "anaerobic" and it is pretty much present year round.

    Please stop with the phrase "That's a common misconception with americans". It is so cliche and old. Believe me American runners are not stupid, retarded Gorillas out running endless Anaerobic Intervals till they get injured...incapapble of understanding the teachings of Arhtur Lydiard.

    1. My original point was that Daniels and Lydiard are very different, but both can be effective. But definitely not the same.

    2. My second point was that too many people abuse Lydiard's go by feel approach, to mean "anything that I do is okay" so long as there's mileage behind it. This line of thought is the #1 destroyer of talent. Regardless of your approach discipline is king.
  • Clarke
    14 years ago 07/31/2005 11:11am CDT
    re: Daniels Olympic Medalists
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    To say that Daniels had something to do with Ryun in 1968 is a joke. Daniels was involved with the '68 distance runners because of his "altitude" knowledge...which in those days was hardly anything. He had a degree, a lab, and his Olympic Modern Pen. experience which he used to get involved with the USOC's "altitude experiments" in '68. I am sure Timmons would appreciate knowing that Daniels was getting credit for Jim's training leading up to the Mexico Games. Daniels was a pain in the ass in those days always trying to be your "best friend" if you were one of the better runners. Back to the original question...Lydiard without a doubt. Compare the records...and espceially compare their records in the key races. Lydiard was a genius at getting athletes ready for "peak" events such as the Olympics.
  • Kim Stevenson
    14 years ago 07/31/2005 11:43am CDT
    re: Oh jees...
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    With Arthur discipline is Kimg.
    He would be the most loyal person I have met in terms of those who wanted to know about his approach to Running.
    He did not care if you were a guy who was over weight wanting to do something about it by jogging or an International Standard athlete. He gave you his all. There were no Trade secrets. All he wanted back was loyalty.
    If you not prepared to do the training then it was a case of "Don't waste my time and I won't waste yours"
    When I asked him about an athlete I was Coaching who had let me down he said " Drop her, If an athlete lets you down once they will do it again". In her case he said "If she wants to go to another Coach, let her, she will come to nothing, she has no loyalty,"
    Interestingly that athlete never came to anything. Sad, as her potential was amazing.
  • old guy II
    14 years ago 07/31/2005 11:50am CDT
    re: Clarke
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    Not entirely true. Jack Daniels and Bob Timmons knew each other from when they both were AAU swim coaches before they even started their running coaching. They consulted on training and the approach that Timmons used with Ryun which was really a derivation of swimming-style interval training.
  • Kim Stevenson
    14 years ago 07/31/2005 11:56am CDT
    re: Clarke
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    Arthur really had "The Touch" when it came to having an athlete ready to race.
    But I think that the thread, rather than taking the negative.
    "Who's better, Lydiard or Daniels". We should be looking at similarities. I have never met Daniels but really like his work, even though I would be considered a "Die Hard" Lydiard man.
    I don't know if Arthur and Jack ever sat down together and just "Shot the Breeze". I have often thought that what would come out of that would be interestng.
    Once Arthur understood something he really took it to heart and showed huge interest. Many times I think that some of these great Coaches have never actually had the opportunity to just get together and compare notes so to speak.
  • Ask Jim Ryun
    14 years ago 07/31/2005 1:08pm CDT
    re: Kim Stevenson
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    Jack Daniels is the reason Jim Ryun won the silver medal.
    You can ask the Jim Ryun family who gets the credit. Jim and Jack are still great friends today and participate in their high school cross country camp.
    Jack took Jim to his altitude in Alamosa and had Ryun run as "easy mile" in 4:15-4:20. He had just set the world record in 3:51. Jim stopped 600m into the time trial and said lets try again in 10 minutes. He could only muster 4:32! A year later the benefits of Daniels paid off with the silver medalist. Jack was trying to get into the running business at that point to help our runners and Ryun was the reason. We all have benefited!
  • Speed Kills
    14 years ago 07/31/2005 2:34pm CDT
    re: Clarke
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    Clarke wrote:

    Lydiard without a doubt. Compare the records...

    OK, here is the US top 10 list for the marathon:

    2:05:38 .. Khalid Khannouchi (NBal) 02
    2:08:40+' .... Alberto Salazar (AW) 81
    2:08:47' ...... Bob Kempainen (Nik) 94
    2:08:54' .... Dick Beardsley (NBal) 82
    2:09:00' ......... Greg Meyer (Brk) 83
    2:09:28' ...... Bill Rodgers (GBTC) 79
    2:09:32' ........... Ron Tabb (adi) 83
    .............. David Morris (NBal) 99
    2:09:35 ........ Jerry Lawson (Nik) 97
    2:09:38' ...... Ken Martin (NikBos) 89

    When Jerry Lawson set the then-American Record (on a legal course), he wasn't just following the Daniels system, he was being directly coached by Jack. When Bob Kempainen ran his best time, he was being coached by Vin Lannana, who uses a Daniels system. Neither, KK nor Salz was using a Lydiard system (a LOT more intensity, in both cases).

    So, in the US, nobody has run as fast as the best runners using Daniels. I know if it was me, though, I'd be a lot more interested in what Khalid says than what some has-been did 40 years ago.
  • you are retarded
    14 years ago 07/31/2005 3:12pm CDT
    re: Speed Kills
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    has been????? man you need some research

    You mention one guy on the list coached by Jack who set an american record woopty freakin do. Lydiard coached Halberg and Snell to olympic gold medals!! Not to mention snell's incredible world records and his 800m run on a grass track.

    Let's see Lydiard also revived the Finnish distance tradition influencing and helping coach Lasse Viren, ya just won 5k/10k gold medals twice each!!

    Then you go to mention a couple of guys who use a daniels system as evidence?! Look how many people use a lydiard system!?!?! Hell Jack Daniels has a ton of stuff taken from the Lydiard system

    Then you go say that Salazar and KK don't use a lydiard system on the sole basis that they did more quality. This proves your ignorance as Lydiards systems include a boatload of quality. Go read man, educate yourself.

    Daniels is a good coach no doubt, but when you straight up compare who they directly coached. He's a minor league coach compared to Lydiards hall of fame carear. No disrespect to daniels intended, just saying on strictly who they coached.

    also lydiard influenced a hell of a lot more training systems than daniels. When lydiard came up with his system it was revolutionary for the time. Daniels isn't.