Comparison of the 5K training schedules from Arthur Lydaird's 1999 book 'Running to the Top' and the first edition of 'Jack Daniel's Running Formula",
It appeared to me that the number of 'quality days' recommended by both men during the core non-base training periods were similar.
[ My digression : I don't like the term 'quality day'. The term is used to describe workouts that are run at a much faster pace than during aerobic long runs, or easy runs. I know Jack Daniel's uses the term 'junk miles', and I kind of agree that if somebody is running miles just to run miles believing that thoses miles will miracuoulsy make them better, then they are wasting time that could be spent training other ways to improve performance. But, a person can rack up lots of 'quality junk miles' too.]
Yes, there are differences. Here are some that stick out :
Lydaird splits his training into more specific phases.
Lydiard has a specific hill traing phase - Daniels does not.
Daniel gives specifc information on running paces - Lydiard does not.
Lydiard describes repeats as 'run one jog one' - Daniels gives specfic paces and rest intervals.
Daniels has different paces for repeats - Lydaird, as I just wrote, is'run one jog one'.
Daniels specifies difference paces for specific reasons - Lydiard ells runners to go by feel.
Lydiard hits the anaeraobic system hard for 4 weeks and then goes through a 'coordiation period' - Daniels hits a bit of everything during the last 12 weeks of his schedule.
Anyway, people may not agree with this, but here is how I compared the two.
What I've done is count the number of 'quality days' listed by both coaches for training for a 5K road race. What I found was quite interestig (at least to me.)
For my purposes, 'quality days' are hard workout days.
For Daniels, 'quality days' are repetitions, intervals, tempo runs, and mix runs.
For Lydiard, 'quailty days' are repititions, time trials, developmental races, sharpeners, and the hill days specifically called out during the 4 weeks of hill training.
Lydaird also has days desicribed as sprint training,striding, and fast relaxed running. I chose not to call these 'quality days' because they do not have a real counter part with Daniels 'quality days'. Daniel did include strides after some of his easy and long days. I've chosen to put these Lydaird days under the same category as Danel's easy days. I did this because any serious runner would do more than go to the track and do 10 x 'fast relaxed running' without doing a few miles of warm up and then some cool down. It would end up being more of a Daniel's easy day with strides. It certainly would not be the same as a Lydiard repitition day, time trial, developmental race, sharpener run, or hill day or Daniel's 'quality day' - so I decided to classify it the same as an easy day.
Daniel's training schedule is 24 weeks long. Lydiards schedules is put together a little bit differently, but if you do 8 weeks of aerobic conditioning before the begining of the 4 weeks of hill training, you get 24 weeks. (Which is also 168 days.)
One more thing, there are some days were a choice is given. For example, Daniels will give a choice of an easy day or mix day. Lydiard will give a choice of a hill day or jog day. I've kept track of those differences
also.
So, for a 168 day training period, the number of 'quality days' is :
Daniels 47 to 49 -> 28% to 29% of runs
Lydiard 48 to 62 -> 29% to 37% of runs
Lydiard has many more days where you are given the choice of doing a 'quality day' or an easy day (jogging). This occurs off and on through out his schedule, but this does occur once a week in the 4 weeks of his hill training
and once a week during the 4 weeks of his anaerobic development training. During these two 4 week periods you could do as little as 8 each or as much as 12 each.
As another note of interest, Lydiard also lists a beginners 'Fun Run' schedule. If you add 2 weeks to its initial 6 weeks of aerobic only running, you end up with 24 weeks (168 days) of training. For this schedule, there
are 39 quality days (23%). The 'Fun Run' schedule does not include hills.
You could easily take the 'Fun Run' schedule and change it into a scaled down Daniel's schedule.
LYDIARD OR DANIELS?
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Time to revive this, as we start looking toward summer training for cross.
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Time to revive this, as we start looking toward summer training for cross.
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Time to revive this, as we start looking toward summer training for cross.
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i felt like bringing this back alive, but why do lydiard lovers hate daniels program so much?
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Keep posting in this thread, they made me answer a question before I could post, funny.
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Hi,
I was reading over your message a while back about Hitachi's training...would it be possible for you to send me this also.
I'm a female runner, currently in college, looking to walk-on a my university. I played soccer there my freshman year, but am now interested in seriously running.
Any help you can provide is much appreciated..
Thanks again.
~Mia -
Is Daniels on record anywhere saying what are his thoughts on Lydiard?
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Is the Daniels schedule available on this thread somewhere?
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Nobby, I read your steps 1,2 and 3 for hills and still really don't understand what you are saying at all. Do you have a video for those?
Nobby wrote:
Johnny:
Of course, "going out like a maniac" in ANY marathon is not a smart idea. You now added one extra variable to measure whether your "running 20 minutes slower at Boston" was due to lack of preparation for hills, both up and down.
It is important to prepare yourself for BOTH uphills and downhills to run a course like Boston. While most people talk about the Heartbreak Hill (although the origin of the name is more of emotional cause than literal), it is as much of downhill running that would make you prepared for the course. Bill Rodgers, as you know, was the king of downhill running and did well over Boston course.
Some people might have hard time handling types of hill training Lydiard advocated. I used to compete in triple jump and I developed what Arthur teasingly called "the best hill bounder" he knew. When I was in NZ, I used to pick up 2 or 3 spots going over the fence (only to be passed by 4 or 5 people on flat!) so I have no problem doing hill exercises. The best way, Lydiard always said, is to go over, say, for 15 minutes (instead of using how many reps) of hill exercise first and see how your legs react to it. Then do 20 minutes, then 30 minutes and so on. As you pointed out, it is NOT anaerobic developing workout (though you WILL get into it). It is not to be performed as an all-out sprint. It is technique/resistance work. -
About Jan Mulak
He was couch of:
Zdzislaw Krzyszkowiak : 50s- 60s ,2times European Champion 5000 and 10 000m 1958 Stockholm , Olimpic Champion Rome 1960 3000 steeple, 4th at 10000m in 1956, world record 3000steaplechease 8,30 in
3000 m – 7:58,2
5000 m – 13:51,6
10000 m – 28:52,4
3000 m steeple – 8:30,4 world rec 1961
Jerzy Chromik three times world record at 3000 steaplechease 8,32 (1958), European Champion at 3000steeple Stockholm 1958
800 m – 1.52.2
1000 m – 2.28.6
1500 m – 3.44.8
3000 m – 7.56.4
5000 m – 13.51.0
10000 m – 29.10.0
3000 m z przeszk. – 8.32.0
Kazimierz Zimny - Bronze Rome 1960 5000m , Two times Second in European Champ. in 1958 and 1962
800 m – 1.52,0
1500 m – 3.44,7
3000 m – 7.54,6
5000 m – 13.44,4
10000 m – 28.46,0
and Jozef Szmidt - Triple jump - first man above 17metres 1960 ,two times olympic gold medalist in triplejump 1960 1964 , Two times European Champion
and Janusz Sidło - javelin 86,62m
Melbourne 1956 -silver
European Champ:
Gold Berno 1954 rzut oszczepem
Gold Sztokholm 1958 rzut oszczepem
Bronze Ateny 1969 rzut oszczepem
and Andrzej Badeński, Jan Werner, Stanisław Grędziński, Jan Balachowski (czterystumetrowcy)4x400m 3,00,58 Mexico City 1968
and many many more.
Mulak was one of the greatest couch in history. But he didn't speak or write in english. People do not remember him because he produced no schemes, all he had in his head
. So his minds and training logs have been forgotten for many generation.Although he lived in a totalitarian system was ablepreserve the freedom of the mind
Polish Nation suffered the most during the Second World War but he created Olympic Medalists in few discipline. Communists did not like him beacause he wanted to be independent and always rebelled against stupidity. And they destoyed him. (before his carrier as a couch was to become Prime Minister of Poland, but the Communists have not committed to that and he took up athletics, but athletic in those days was also full of politics, and he lost.) He created Polish Running Play , something between Holmer's Fartlek and tempo training with some kind of running strengh sessions. He preffered to train in natural terrain, the spartan type of life, pure technic of runinng, 120-140km per week , he taught us how to use the hard winter of training.
"Restless soul
Jan Mulak was also a restless spirit. Loudly about his trip was a horse carriage. For the trip persuaded him Zbigniew Majewski - creator of the famous sports resort in Drzonków. Mr. Zbigniew decided to ignore the boycott announced by the Moscow Olympic Games in Los Angeles and go to California horse-drawn carriage. It was crazy, but not for the full vigor of life and retirees (Majewski was 60 years old, and Mulak 80!). They reached the port of Havre Pniewy. When they were already embarked on a ship bound for the U.S. and reflected on how to ride across the United States stepped into the Polish embassy in France. Under threat of being taken away from them they had to stop trip passports. He wrote about them, among others. opinion leader, "New York Times, was shown them in the western television channels. And the Olympic Organizing Committee has agreed that one of the points of the opening ceremony of the biggest events on the planet was a horse carriage to enter the Olympic stadium.
But do not give up. What they failed to do in 1994, made eight years later. After defeating the five thousand. kilometers they came to Barcelona, visited the Olympic village, and after less than half a year they returned to the country. They traveled by horse-drawn "Polish Konik," in the company of lowland sheepdogs. Technically safeguarded Zuk expedition, made available by the factory in Lublin. They slept only on the carriage. Did not use any of the calls for accommodation in private homes and hotels."
http://k.com.pl/index.php/content/view/193/86/ and google tranlator:) -
When Lydiard was talking about sustained cardiac pressure during the conditioning phase, was he referring to the vein that has been out on my forehead for the past 3 months of 100-125 miles a week that I've been running?
This vein use to only come out in times of stress, now it's always out. Anyone have similar experience? -
---from the cvrr.ca forum wrote:
Over the last few months I've quit a couple of running forums. I spend way too much time doing things like this, which become very draining, hahaha. I don't want this wonderful place to become Letsrun II, and I think my being here, debating the way that I do, will cause that to happen. My email is linked in the CVRRTNW page. I am the club coach, and like any coach, I have a certain style, and a certain belief system.
RSO wrote:
Can you believe this guy? Is he really that full of himself or is he being sarcastic? Can we get a name here?
Darren Skuja -
Well this is especially true - or consistently true it seems - with masters aged runners. DOMS doesn't set in for an extra day or so, so why not blast another effort before soreness happens?
I think Dixon's reason was because he was doing such good, consistent volume on very hilly environs, that he could stands some strong efforts back-to-back-to-back. -
Daniels, I work well on high quality low mileage.
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I thought this thread was finally gone forever. Whatever got you to bring it back?
I haven't seen it in years and am amazed that there's something in it about Jan Mulak who I've been intrigued by because I read a couple references thatvan Aaken made to him. Fromild, if you happen to look in on this after all these years, do you know of a place where there's more information about him? -
If you check out Livingstone's excellent Healthy Intelligent Training you can actually have the best of both. (page 140 et seq).
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vdgcDfstqNAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=healthy+intelligent+training&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpxs-Jqv7LAhVLthQKHU7aAdwQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=healthy%20intelligent%20training&f=false -
But then again, the argument can be made that Daniels is influenced by Lydiard, therefore what you read in HIT appears to you to be influenced by Daniels and Lydiard.
You might as well say, "nearly every successful coach since the early 60s is represented in the book". -
I want to hear more about this Polish speed play. Fartlek in nature with more steady running?/sounds just like a quality fartlek.
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Oatbrans wrote:
I want to hear more about this Polish speed play. Fartlek in nature with more steady running?/sounds just like a quality fartlek.
Me too. I wish I'd looked at this thread again years ago when that was posted. He mentioned that Kryzkowiak was coached by Mulak. There is actually a profile of two Poles, Kryzkowiak and Kazimir Zinny, in Fred Wilt's "How They Train; Long Distances." But he mentions Tadeuz Kepka as their coach, not Mulak.
