Your Experience with Online Coaching (Tinman, Daniels' Group, etc.)

You just broke my heart putting us with the wizard.

Shoot us an email, we can put you in contact with some athletes we coach. Also we'd be happy to get on the phone with you and talk about what we do and see if we are a good fit. If we aren't we will be happy to point you in the right direction. We aren't hard the hard sell type of people. We just enjoy coaching.

At the end of the day results matter to most people, but it sounds like you want to learn about the sport as well, ask that next question.

JS? I don't think he counts lmao ?

If you need the whys, save your money and just get a damn book.

With your current PRs and mileage you look like a new toothpaste: whenever you press it comes out. Saying other way, there are a lot of low hanging fruits just by training smart and increasing volume.

As other poster adviced get Jack Daniels, Steve Magness and follow summer of Malmö. Consistency will bring you quickly to 35' per 10k.

Best investment you can make today is to hire good kinesiologist: one needs running specific strength to cut down on injuries.

Afterwards you will know if you need a coach and for which goal.

Maybe go with McMillan coaching.

legendre wrote:

With your current PRs and mileage you look like a new toothpaste: whenever you press it comes out. Saying other way, there are a lot of low hanging fruits just by training smart and increasing volume.

As other poster adviced get Jack Daniels, Steve Magness and follow summer of Malmö. Consistency will bring you quickly to 35' per 10k.

Best investment you can make today is to hire good kinesiologist: one needs running specific strength to cut down on injuries.

Afterwards you will know if you need a coach and for which goal.

I've read the heavy hitters (Pfitz, Daniels, the Lydiard Foundation book, making my way through Magness), so while I get the basic stuff, I guess I'm always looking for more (why this workout and not another at this point...when to increase the stimulus and how so, long-term periodization, etc.). Perhaps I'm looking for too much with that in a coach.

Would you say most personalized online coaching is basically just a plan? I was under the impression that they'd check-in each week on key workouts to make adjustments, give info on reasonable long-term goals, but I'm new to this. I was probably mistaken.

legendre wrote:

Best investment you can make today is to hire good kinesiologist: one needs running specific strength to cut down on injuries.

Afterwards you will know if you need a coach and for which goal.

Also, any advice on where to look for a good kinesiologist for running? Injury prevention is definitely important.

online coaches should be checking in with you on at least a weekly basis, unless you're just buying a training plan and everybody knows that no further interaction is included.

150-200/mo is way too much for just a training plan in my opinion, unless that plan is from a super famous coach...like Alberto Salazar, the second greatest coach of all time besides coach JS.

okay was just kidding there...but yeah I'd expect a couple emails or phone calls if I'm paying that much.

Another thought wrote:

Maybe go with McMillan coaching.

I used McMillan and had some good success with it.

I bought a marathon plan from Daniels run smart 5yrs back. I specifically stated that I suffer doing pure VO2max work and asked for more combo sessions like T+I as those were easier for me mentally. The plan suited me perfectly. I just paid for the plan and nothing more.

The guy that made my program was really nice (Vince something) and I reported back every week on progress. Also asked how I could make changes in the program when things needed to get shuffled around. He didn't have to, but he answered all my emails and was very encouraging. That program helped me finally crack 2.50 as a 42yr old in the marathon that was a goal of mine.

I've read all the books and yes, theoretically I could make my own program, but I didn't mind paying a few bucks to get someone elses input.

I don't know if I was just lucky, but I really enjoyed that experience.

For what you're looking for, I wouldn't go with Tinman. I generally don't need a lot of feedback or communication and even I got the feeling I was bothering him a little whenever I asked a question. He got back to me every time I contacted him but his answers were always very short. He also seemed to always forget who I was or specifics I had mentioned in previous interactions (simple things like my goal race or only having access to a track or hill on specific days). I think this is probably due to a heavy workload and not being super high on his pecking order. If you believe in his system though he'll give you a plan catered to your general experience, strengths and weaknesses. Just don't expect a lot of feedback.

As for other options people have yet to mention:

- Run Doyen looks potentially good with all of their coaching options and, getting to speak with a specific coach to understand your needs prior to committing might work for you.

- Previously Tinman coached runner Kyle Medina started an online coaching thing. He's probably just the right size to give you the type of individual attention you're looking for.

- Tommy Kaufman of this blog:

always seems like he knows his stuff training wise and I'm sure would be a good option for individual attention.

I'm sure there are plenty of others out there. Remember though, it should be about what you need specifically out of a coach. Don't worry about big names necessarily. If you get a good vibe and feel confident, go with that.

Former Tinman Client. I agree 100% with this. You will get a training plan that will be taylored to you and that is about it. Zero check-ins. Your workout notes are not read. Questions will be answered but will be so brief it's almost confusing. If you ask two questions in an email only 1 might be answered. $200 a month is a lot for that much interaction.

That said I stuck to his plan and did see results. Better results than being self coached. I attributed it to better consistency and a higher percentage of easy running. Novice mistake on my part.

I would recommend some good books and better logging of what you do and how you feel and perform. Write out a 3 month plan and stick to it. Taper. Race. Recalibrate based on what you learned. You will be further ahead in the long run.

Thanks for posting— this is super helpful. Yeah, I think Tinman probably has a ton going on and some slow dude in his 30s doesn’t get the meter moving. I’ll check into the guys you mentioned

Rippling Hysteresis wrote:

legendre wrote:

Best investment you can make today is to hire good kinesiologist: one needs running specific strength to cut down on injuries.

Afterwards you will know if you need a coach and for which goal.

Also, any advice on where to look for a good kinesiologist for running? Injury prevention is definitely important.

My point is to say that there is no secret workout. And at this stage it's better to look at broader picture than looking to marginal gains. Just doing tempo + track/fartlek + long run per week and consistently hiting 60+ miles will lower your PRs in a matter of 3 months. It will get you to 85-90%. Good coach will give you remaining 10%.

I do not know if it's a good progression, but I went into winter with 1h25 half PR (28 years, 35-40 mpw) and after 3 month training on Magness marathon plan adjusted to 50 mpw I did 1h20 in the spring. I was ready for 2h50 marathon a bit later but unfortunately had an injury. I think Daniels or Pfitz would work the same way.

For the strength training you need to find smbd locally who understands running to give you specific strength training. I had a chance to find a guy in Paris who was trail runner himself. Once again, he wasn't the greatest coach ever but good enough for me.

I was in a similar situation to you a few years ago and the best thing that I did was join a running club. To me, that should be your first port of call, training with other people is potentially the best thing for seeing improvement. I'm in the UK and we have a very healthy club scene, but finding a group to do Tuesday interval sessions and Sunday long runs with changed my running a lot. You will learn a lot about training methods just through conversations with people with experience.

I took my times down from 17'45/37'00/84'55/3'11 to 16'30/34'30/2'56 just from training in a good group and keeping consistent high mileage.

At this point I did decide to go down the online coaching route, as I wanted to work more specifically towards decreasing my marahon time. I went with someone connected to my running club as it made sense that they would work within the framework of what I was already doing. It's really worked for me as I find it valuable to have someone to bounce ideas off, chat through sessions, etc... Plus, my training plans are set two weeks in advance based on what's happend over the previous few weeks and what we're working towards. My marathon time is now 2'40 and I'm hoping to progress to 2'35 in the spring.

TL;DR - there's a lot you can do on your own/with a group before shelling out money for a coach, but once you do get one the most important aspect of coaching is two way feedback.

Don't go with CCG or JS. Both will give you a generic plan, both are merely salespeople.

I'd encourage you to figure it out for yourself. If not, any elite or sub-elite athlete will do, as you will get more attention from them. To improve your times, you don't need the "best coach". You just need someone who cares and will try. To guarantee that, pick any sub 14:30/sub 30:00 sub elite that is trying to support their own running career, in part with coaching. There is big incentive for them to give you their best.

My .02 on this.

I used Brooks/hansons for 18 months. I had pretty similar PBs to you. I had marked improvement with them. They commented on and critiqued my runs every single day. It helped me a ton. I learned so much. Highly recommend.

For the runner who is not a potential professional, why not grab Daniels' Running Formula (1st edition is best IMO) and build a plan with it. Set your VDOT by racing periodically, then stick to a written plan, and compete. I ran in HS and college but the coach only has a bit of time for each athlete and can never really do more than guess how you're making it in a plan. Besides, what is a coach going to do that you cannot become knowledgeable enough to do on your own?

I would spend money on a running or track club membership, for the group training aspect and ability to compare notes with other runners, before I would hire a coach. FWIW.

Yeah, I would like to join a more competitive running club. There are some good ones in NYC, but the issue for me is that most have their runs at 6:00 A.M. or 7 P.M. I work afternoons late into the evening, so I definitely miss the evening runs (which are usually the workouts) and the sunrise runs are tough given I'm not in bed til midnight.