I'm no Centro hater but ....

What? You serious mate?

Star wrote:

Some 1500 racing at last wrote:

... He has a shot only in slow, tactical races - not real 1500 strength.

He has twice medalled in 3:36 races and was 4th in a 3:34 race to go with his Gold in 3:50.

4 top 4 finishes at championship races doesn't seem flukey.

This was the first championship race faster than 3:33 since since 2001.

So, he only has a shot in almost every championship race that they run.

Every championship 1500 since 2001 was a fluke until this year. We are only judging 1500 runners off their ability to compete in the exact race that happened in Doha. And of course age and fitness from previous years compared to now bear no relevance.

Centro made the finals and then ran a great race to win gold.

Is there a problem, officer?

Truth is Here wrote:

Some 1500 racing at last wrote:

... it's getting quite clear now that the Rio gold was a fluke - surely based on a huge misjudgment from his opponents but Centro got very very lucky .

He won in 2016 because he is a world-class tactician with a great finish. You can't call it a fluke or "lucky" when he has finished 4th, 3rd, and 2nd at other world championship races and has a 3:30 PB. Most championship finals feature slower starts with burning finishes, while fast-from-the-gun races like the one Cheruiyot engineered are outliers. If anything Centro just got UNLUCKY this time around.

He was in the final. He was the top American in the final (1.4sec ahead of Engels). He had some injury issues the past year or so. He ran 3:32 SB. Doesn't exactly sound like a disaster. He could hang up the spikes tomorrow and he is one of the best Americans ever, with or without this race.

As are most "tactical race" winners.

I agree with pretty much everything Mtljogs said here. I can't stand when people say that a championship race was "a x,xxx meter jog and then a 400m sprint..." That's BS. It's not a jog. No, they're not going all-out, but that doesn't make it a warmup. It's also not some team workout where there is a pre-determined pace that everyone has agreed to work together to hit. They're running bunched-up, tense, watching their steps, worried and tactically waiting to respond at any moment to someone putting in a surge. If it was a warmup, then the fastest 400-800m guy would win easily every time, which they don't.

Centro won because he was in complete control for the entirety of the race. In the later stages, when Kiprop was throwing in surges to try to pass him, Centro masterfully hung onto the inside lane and responded to every surge perfectly to maintain his positioning. He mentally and physically bested everyone in that field. He also responded to Makhloufi's final 100m kick, which you would think would be much stronger than Centro's... He saved the perfect amount of strength and energy for his kick, and executed everything perfectly.

Let's take things down to a lower, more relatable level of talent and racing atmosphere... You're at a local Turkey Trot. Let's say you're a sub-15 guy over 5K, and at the starting line, you spot the local high school's best runner. He has a 16:30 PR, but also runs a 1:59 800m on the track. You've never come close to cracking 2-min in the 800m. It's not your event.

You're there to have fun, but you'd also like to win, so you go out and run 5:30 pace for the first 2 to 2.5 miles. That's >17-min pace over 5K, so it's pretty damn easy for both of you.

In the last 0.5 to 1 mile, things start to heat up, and it becomes an all-out, kick finish over the last 400-800m. You (the sub-15 guy) are going to win. I don't care that this other guy is a faster mid-D guy than you. There's no way some 16:30 guy is going to beat you, because you're head and shoulders above him in talent and experience. Sure he's faster over 800m, but not after having gone through the physical and mental strain of 2 miles of racing beforehand. That pace may have been easy for both of you over the first 2 miles, but it was you who was in control. You dictated that pace, because you're the better 5K guy. If he tried to surge, you were going to respond easily. It would be a "sit-and-kick" style race, but it is still a full 5K, and the better 5K guy is going to execute the "sit" better to ensure that he also wins in the "kick"...

I don't get why people get all up in arms over these types of races. If you're a somewhat experienced runner, then you should realize what it is that you're watching, and you should recognize and understand the little nuances that make championship style track racing exciting. To me, people who openly whine and complain about slow Finals races are just outing themselves as "hobby joggers" (for lack of a better term). They have clearly never run in a high-stakes race where everyone in the field is capable of running amazing times, and anyone at any moment could break things open with a surge. It's intense, it's nerve-wracking, and it's exciting. If you can't see that, then you don't know what you're watching.

Only thing I disagree with you on is the remark about how the race "determines the best runner in the world that year". That's debatable, but that's just the nature of sports. The Patriots in 2007 were the best team in football. I don't care what anyone says, they were by far the best team in the NFL. BUT - they didn't win the Super Bowl. So, it's really up to the fan to decide: are you really the best team if you don't win the Super Bowl at the end of the year? Does winning the Super Bowl make you the best team? If that's the case, then the GIANTS, who barely made the wild-card spot that year with a 10-6 record, and then sneaked their way into the Super Bowl were the best team in the NFL that year...

I highly doubt many people would agree that the Giants were unequivocally "the best" team in the NFL that year, but that's not the point. If the best team (or runner) always won, then there wouldn't be a championship. There would be no playoffs. There would be no semi-finals. There would be no finals. There would be no fun. That's sports. That's why they are fun. Anyone can win on any day, against any opponent, and in any conditions. Flukes happen. Upsets happen. That's sports. It doesn't matter "who is the best". You don't get to just show up and win.

"Who's the best" is such an objective phrase, and there is no award for "the best". There's a champion, and there's a loser (or losers). The goal for an NFL team is to win the Super Bowl. The Patriots were the best team the entire year, but they lost the Super Bowl. They failed their goal. They were losers that year. The Giants won the Super Bowl. The fact that they weren't the best does not matter. They succeeded, and they were winners that year.

Every 1500m runner at Rio had the goal of winning the finals. That was the prize. Go through the semi-final rounds, and get yourself into position in the finals to win gold. Centro did that. Centro was the champion at Rio, and he'll always be the champion at Rio. Doesn't make him the best, but it does make him the champ. Why is that such an insane concept for people to just accept...

Some 1500 racing at last wrote:

... it's getting quite clear now that the Rio gold was a fluke - surely based on a huge misjudgment from his opponents but Centro got very very lucky .

Anyone of these guys can win a 3:50 race with a bit of luck (and some brains for sure), but only a true 1500 champ can dominate the race from end to end and clock sub 3:30.

Centro simply couldn't keep up. He has a shot only in slow, tactical races - not real 1500 strength.

It has taken this long for you to have the wrong opinion.

The Pats also spent the entire season blowing the doors off of their opponents. Nearly every game they played in was a shootout with their high-powered air raid type offence. Insane passing totals, and scores often up into the 40s and 50s... Final score of the Super Bowl that year: Giants - 17; Patriots - 14... The game was a defensive battle. It was exciting as hell. That game was a nerve-wracking battle that had you on the edge of your seat the entire time. The Giants did what they had to do and executed a game-plan that made them the champions that year. Anyone at your Super Bowl watch party that year who cried that "this is boring. There's not enough scoring" is a dumb and clueless fan.

Nice to see someone respectful on LRC !

I will agree with you on the point that no one race can dictate the world's best athlete that year, so the remark about the WC wasn't fully accurate. I enjoy watching tactical (not necessarily slow) races so I tend to give WC and Olympic Victories more importance than PBs, so there is a bit of a bias.

White men can't run wrote:

Haha look at all the Centro fanboys: TRIGGERED!

Like a lot.

Cento’s victory in the Olympics was no fluke. First, he was in awesome shape. Secondly, he ran that race like an Olympic champion. He led from the gun and controlled the entire field, dictating it under his terms. The gold medal move was he fought off Suliman, who tried to take the lead from Centro at the bell. Then, Centro blazed the last lap in 50, maintaining the lead and importantly his position on the curb. It was a brilliantly executed and brave race plan. He ran that race like he intended to win it and he did.

Some 1500 racing at last wrote:

... it's getting quite clear now that the Rio gold was a fluke - surely based on a huge misjudgment from his opponents but Centro got very very lucky .

Anyone of these guys can win a 3:50 race with a bit of luck (and some brains for sure), but only a true 1500 champ can dominate the race from end to end and clock sub 3:30.

Centro simply couldn't keep up. He has a shot only in slow, tactical races - not real 1500 strength.

OP and Centro haters - what say you to Willis' career? Does he get a pass because he hasn't

"let you down" as much (has Centro really let you down, in comparison to Webb, Wheating, etc?)?

Willis has arguably similar overall global results and balance of PB's as Centro. I will say that he's probably done a better job being "in the mix" throughout his career, but he's only truly bested Centro's 1500m PB twice. As others have said, Centro has found a way to stay relevant, competitive and get medals. Medals = contract bonuses. You think ya' boy cares about minute PB or a new whip every few years?

Sorry, I missed that second point. I think it is cute that so many at LRC put so much emphasis on strategy when it plays such a small roll and usually is a result of pure chance. I have nothing against Centro and he very well may have won if the race were run faster. The fact that others let him dictate the race shows that he was well respected in the field. What I have an issue with is the way all athletes chose to run that race and chose to allow Centro to dictate a slow race. This kind of race is a disgrace to 1500m running. You yourself have conceded that a faster PB does not mean you will win, so you've contradicted your own argument about leg speed. I'm not sure when these guys made these PBs in their career, but Centro may very well have had been working on his leg speed during that period of time and felt confident about his ability to pull off a fast lap or surely he wouldn't have chose this strategy. Personally though, I don't really care who is first/second/third in a race as much as I care about the speed of the race. The race itself is a failure if it is slow and all participants have failed/lost. None of them deserve any award at all for running a slow race. This sort of messing around with the pace.... "strategy", as you call it, is a result of the sort of egotism that detracts from the real spirit of running, which is the endeavor to determine the maximum ability the human body is capable of. Some runners put their own personal fame above the interests of the discipline of running, but more than that, I think it is a case of misplaced priorities... probably not only of the athletes, but of the spectators. It is truly far more impressive to run a great time than to place well. I'd far more rather be 8th in a fast race, than to be 1st in a slow race. The venue and the awards are no more than a carrot on a stick to help motivate our shallow minds towards this ultimate goal. Luckily, our base human minds are shallow enough to be swayed by this pomp and attention and we are more motivated under these conditions, but ultimately, the physical achievement is far more meaningful and timeless than any placing on a specific day, recognition, or any symbolic hunk of material.

Imagine being 5th in a race where the top 5 competitors made the top 5 of all time? This is far better than placing 1st in a 3:50 race. Olympics? Timbuktoo? Who cares.... then venue is just a way to trick athletes into caring more about the race, because humans are not much more than glorified monkey's and they are easy to motivate using these shallow gimmicks. A guy who can never brake 3:30 is still going to be remembered as such... any guy who breaks 3:30 will be held in higher historical esteem, regardless of how many medals he won. I don't really care where he broke 3:30, but he did more to show us the human potential and so contributed more and achieved more.

I don't care what you call it. Centro 1500 Rio was a work of Art. And you can never take that away from Centro.

There is no doubt that there were two moments, fractions of seconds, that determined Centro's fate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grf_62s_95w

At 2:57, he fights off Souleiman once.

At 3:17, a life-changing moment for Centro, at 1030 meters, he deftly elbows past Souleiman to take the lead.

Then he takes advantage of the fact that he ran less distance, and with less effort, than those who tried to beat him in the sprint home.

Centro made the most of that moment. I call it artistic, and genius.

Well I think this disagreement just comes down to a fundamental difference about how we view the sport: I value the competitive aspect over chasing fast times and you believe in the opposite view. This is an age old debate in track and won't be resolved here, so I'm done. Good luck in your running career!

Centro front ran that race. Anyone that wanted to go faster than him had the option to do so and did not. Either they weren't brave enough to take the lead or they were content to take their chances in a sit and kick race. Very interesting that the 3 most experienced milers were the medalists.

On a side note: I ckecked, and a 3:35,2 win in London 1500m 2018 seems to be Centrowitz' fastest win on the circuit. In fact, one has to say that he won more medals than races at any "normal" meetings of any importance. Quite astonishing.

Some 1500 racing at last wrote:

... it's getting quite clear now that the Rio gold was a fluke - surely based on a huge misjudgment from his opponents but Centro got very very lucky .

Anyone of these guys can win a 3:50 race with a bit of luck (and some brains for sure), but only a true 1500 champ can dominate the race from end to end and clock sub 3:30.

Centro simply couldn't keep up. He has a shot only in slow, tactical races - not real 1500 strength.

It's now 100% confirmed that it was a fluke