Women’s Silver Louisville

They lead cart too the women the wrong way right after the 3.9k split. When they realized it at least a large part of the lead pack had gone about 200m past the missed turn. People turned around to go back and of course ran into the group coming toward them. Confused and some panic ensued before the now very large group just ran through spectators to try to get back to the original course. The cart got back in the lead and changed the rest of the course on the fly. People were all over the place and by the time they had final results they realized they could not use them. They convened the games committee and they decided to use the scores from the 3.9k timing mat as it was the last one before the mess up.

They try to pin the mistake on a lapped runner but it was the meet management who messed up. Is a shame that they put so much into the early races and then seemed to give minimal effort to the silver races. The announcer left and was replaced by a guy who barely gave any info on the races. It may have only been D3 but it was the pre national meet and the management didn't treat it with the care they should have. This was a major screw up and could have serious implications on the NCAA meet. The meet management needs to get their act together before November. Unfortunately for some teams the damage is already done.

Yes it absolutely was the lead cart driver's fault and not the lapped runner. The games committee released a statement that said "a gate was opened at the wrong time due to a lapped runner, which caused the field to deviate to an alternate course for safety of spectators. The Games Committee determined that the race will be scored at 3.9k (last split point)"

Regardless of if a gate was left open, the correct route was not closed. This was the third time the women's route was being run that day and there is absolutely no excuse for this to happen. "safety of the spectators" is BS because spectators were scattering away from the lead cart and then the women racing had to run off the actual course, leaping over the ropes and barriers, to get back on track.

Glad that the race will be scored at the last point in which ALL racers were on the same fair route but this should not have happened in the first place. The lead cart must know the way so that coaches don't have to run onto the course to redirect runners and tell volunteers to drop boundary ropes to let them through. Absolutely no excuse at a pre-national race that has hosted this meet and multiple nationals races before.

#LeadCartHasOneJob

Agree except: This was the 3rd women's race, but the first 2 were 5k. That's probably what happened, they just went about the 5k course until they realized they were supposed to add the 1k extension. However, I ALSO heard they may have then tried to adjust the course on the fly, so that some runners actually ended up running less than 6k (in "full race" results) - but top few ran at least 6k.

All in all, shows appalling lack of attention. Now I hear that they won't officially use ANY results in terms of determining at-large later in the season. If so, sucks for teams that ran well.

You can look at actual results, including at different splits, here:

https://live.recordtiming.com/meets/4482/xc-events/173163/scores

From what I heard, about the top 15 ran the wrong way. Looks like the top 11 almost universally lost ground in the last 2k, whereas the next group almost universally gained ground. (Sort by 3.9k split, and you'll see what happens to those top 11 by 6k)

Coaches at the 3 mile mark waiting for women to arrive for splits never saw them. When the lead vehicle got in front of the field again after the ‘mishap’ the driver made up a route to the finish on the fly. If the women never reached the three mile mark the course was, at a minimum cut short by as much as 200 meters with the max being about 300 meters. So women that ran 50 meters or so in the wrong direction before being told to turn back still ran under 6k. Runners throughout the field, except the top 20 or so were making the correct turn. Not all, but some. Then more as the leaders returned to the missed turn. It was a point of mass confusion for the women.

In 2016 when Louisville hosted pre Nats and ran 6k about 100 women ran under 24. This year just shy of 200 women broke 24. The results are kind of meaningless. If Louisville wants to host DIII nationals they have to get this right. Teams flew in from CA/CT and if true this meet won’t count, they get zero at large consideration for a 3.9k scored by made up criteria.

"That's probably what happened, they just went about the 5k course until they realized they were supposed to add the 1k extension."

The first 4500 meters is the SAME for all 3 race distances (5K-6K-8K). If the same lead cart driver was used for the earlier races, she/he should have known the course was identical through that point. In fact, the first 6K of the men's is identical to the women's 6K except the last 30-50 meters where the women's racers finish and the men veer to the right to complete their final 2K ending with the common finish.

Not to pile on the lead cart driver(s), but I saw coaches yelling at their runners on the first 2K loop in several races to NOT follow the lead cart and to run the tangents. The lead cart led the entire field at the starts of each race far left and then the runners had to come back right after 300-400 meters to get back to the course. They had 4 people in the vehicle and none of them noticed they were adding distance to the course at those points. This all happened BEFORE the last race (women's Silver 6K) misdirection; SAD.

[quote]Saw it live wrote:

They lead cart too the women the wrong way right after the 3.9k split. When they realized it at least a large part of the lead pack had gone about 200m past the missed turn. People turned around to go back and of course ran into the group coming. [/

200 meters seems way too big an estimate. That’s a good 85-90 seconds of running just to get back to the same place and rejoin the race.

The course around the 4K mark is a long straight path. How did the cart leave the course? The next turn should have been the area where the 5k and 6k courses split for the extra K. Seems there is absolutely no excuse for what happened with the lead vehicle.

Pre Nats Mishap wrote:

[quote]

200 meters seems way too big an estimate. That’s a good 85-90 seconds of running just to get back to the same place and rejoin the race.

The course around the 4K mark is a long straight path. How did the cart leave the course? The next turn should have been the area where the 5k and 6k courses split for the extra K. Seems there is absolutely no excuse for what happened with the lead vehicle.

I agree with all these. Had to be at about 4.5k, right where they should have turned. My daughter was in top group and said she knew they were supposed to turn, but someone was blocking the turn and the cart went straight. She says she went "at least 15 seconds" before turning around, but that's an estimate and I know sometimes time gets distorted! In any case, not likely that anyone went 200m. But possible the leader went maybe 150, and next went 100? After that, the extra distance diminished with place before the turn.

I also know that no one after about 18th-20th went wrong way initially (or at least, they didn't backtrack), and most runners after about 10th place were alerted to the snafu pretty quickly. So, MIT lost a few places (they had a runner in the lead, who lost A LOT of ground after that, and a few runners who probably lost just a tiny bit - their #2 at 3.9k was 11th). Three other contending teams (Baldwin Wallace, Hope, Oberlin) all had 1 runner in the top group, plus a couple other individuals from non-contending teams. And a few individuals might have moved up due to the mixup. Between 3.9k and 6k, MIT maintained first (barely) but added many points (from 43 to 90). Oberlin maintained 2nd (while dropping from 115 to 90 pts). St Thomas, 3rd at 3.9k, pared a few points but got passed in standings by Hope (dropped from 201 to 148) and RPI. St T's top runners at 3.9k their top runners were 27th, 28th, & 35th - so, if anything, should have benefited. So, hard to separate which teams were finishing strong vs those who benefit or were hurt by Official (ie cart drivers') stupidity.

Anyway while times become meaningless, the pattern of results didn't change too much. Also, I'd note that even if the overall course was, say, 2k short (setting aside those who followed lead cart and ran extra), that's about 44 sec at 6:00 pace. And it probably wasn't THAT short. There are much bigger differences between tough courses or conditions and fast courses/conditions. Some courses routinely run 1-2:00 slower than others, although those are extreme. But one course being 44 sec faster than another? No big deal. Just a shame it wasn't the same for everyone!

"My daughter was in top group and said she knew they were supposed to turn, but someone was blocking the turn and the cart went straight."

What did your daughter report regarding how the lead cart changed the course after the snafu? Did the cart take them up the men's 8K cut-thru on the 2nd loop where the men's 7K mark is - thus cutting off the down and up hill near the bike complex?

Mistake happened as large starting loop was being completed the second time. Should have made right turn toward 4K mark, but went straight. Hearing leaders went as far as 100m maybe a little more before turning back. You can see the lead woman went from 1st at 3.9k to 25th at ‘6k’. She was well ahead and paid the biggest place price due to lead vehicle error. Runners as far back as 125ish we’re going straight. The further back you were the less you ran in the wrong direction. Some spectators and the official in the area were getting some runners in the top 75ish to make the turn or at least correct themselves much sooner. The new leaders were going by the 4K mark with no cart in front of them. Athletes were running both back toward the turn and some diagonally through the field (under / over course roping) to get back to the course. When the lead vehicle got in front again they ended the ordeal by using the men’s 8k finish. The women’s silver runners never reached the three mile mark where coaches were waiting to collect splits. This decision by the lead cart explains why. A quick check using a distance software site indicates that may have cut 325-360 meters off the course if they took that exact path. Seems possible no athlete ran a full 6k with those impacted most by the error running the closest to 6k and those that never missed the turn ran well short of 6k. This explains several of the nearly 200 sub 24:00 times, a portion of the sub 23, and potentially a very small number of the sub 22 times.

Checking some random runners, there are women who reached the 2.1k mat at 5:50 pace and were then averaging 5:59 pace by 3.9 K. Suddenly they were running 5:40 pace for the overall finishing time. Obviously the distance removed was huge to create that sort of change in overall race average for a person already slowing down from 5:50 to 6:18 pace by 3.9k. This of course is assuming the mat locations are correct / accurate.

As someone above said all courses are identical through about 4.5k. The men’s 8k and women’s 6k are essentially the same for even longer. The women deserved a better experience.

Look at the course map and see where they turn right around 4k but instead went straight. The lead cart and runners made it past the finish before the cart pulled off to the right. Maybe not 200m but still a good way. They the runners then spent some time confused before turning and running back just past that dirt road where they were again stopped for a brief moment and confused until someone took the initiative and went over the rope and through the field toward the real course. That entire intersection became a huge mess.

Same lead cart driver for all races also. I believe he was going wide and not following tangents at some points to minimize the amount of dust he kicked up. However the missed turn is on him.

Using the USATF ‘map it’ website the distance from where the athletes should have made the turn to being adjacent to the finish chute is 140m. So 145m would be past the finish area.

Using the usatf site taking the men’s 8k route to the finish takes nearly 500m off the women’s course. Adding back in the distance to cut across the field, approximately 100m, the course was cut short by approximately 400m.

When you’re moving time flies by. When you’re stuck time stands still. In reality the clock is always ticking at the same speed.

Watching video replay. . Well beyond the mishap and as runners are turning for home... Someone is yelling ‘we are adjusting the course’ and continues to do so sporadically as runners begin to realize they are no longer running the 6k route to the finish. The same voice later says, ‘we are adjusting the course, it will be 5500 meters’.

The leader passed the missed turn at 14:43. She was spotted back on the correct path (at missed turn) 68 seconds later. The video shows confusion and people making the turn from both directions, but no coming to a stop at the merge. It also shows some runners inside top 100 being directed the correct way. Also shows shows people running by.

Here is an interesting stat. The leader passed the missed turn in 14:43 and at the time of the 3.9k split, she was 24 seconds ahead of the first leader you see on the video you see back on the right path (CWRU runner). It took the MIT leader 53 seconds to reach the missed turn after crossing the split mat. So assuming about the same amount of time, the first leader to appear on video down the correct route would have missed the turn at about 15:07. She was on the route and in the lead by 15:30. So the person that reached the 3.9k split in 14:14 and passed the turn in ~15:07 was back on route in 23 seconds. Probably seemed like an eternity. She was in 15th place at 3.9k. So the top 10 were impacted the most.

Greatest impact ~68 seconds. Smallest impact ~23 seconds. Everyone else somewhere in between. Also remember ‘we are adjusting the course, it will be 5500m’. More like 5600m based on the adjustment.

Thanks for the video replay info. almost enough to make me want to subscribe to flotrack to watch it. What you say fits with reports from team I know: Top few went far before getting chance to turn back. Starting around 12th-15th, runners did not run extra distance, and runners from 9th or 10th to 12th probably didn't go far before learning of the turn - what does the video say about them?

Also, does the video give any indication of how runners got back on course? It seems they each took their own path...

In any case, course directors never should have made second adjustment, it only made the situation worse.

All of what was said is true. The lead cart went past the turn that every other race that day had turned on to (lapped runner or no). The only difference for the silver race was the loop from that point forward was a change from the 5K loop. For something to happen on this scale at the end of the day is a shame for the coaches and athletes that sacrificed a weekend of competition and how much out of their limited budgets to attend. Also, from what I heard, the race director was in the lead cart of the race.

I'm probably a jerk. When my daughter was in middle school, I helped out at a 3 team xc meet. The high school kid who was the "lead vehicle/rabbit" took a wrong turn and leading kids finished the 2 mile race in about 8 minutes. I was the guy holding the Popsicle sticks at the end of the race.

I looked at my watch and knew they didn't run the whole course, so I didn't give out and place sticks. Coaches were furious with me (Relax, it's a dumb middle school xc double dual meet).

Funny thing is that I told my daughter to memorize the course and not to pay attention to people getting lost but she still followed the crowd. 15 minutes after she crossed the finish line, she asked her coach if she could run in the varsity race, sprinted to the line as the gun went off and she beat most of the girls on her team.

The Louisville course looks pretty simple, two loops, then hang a right, not too hard. Yeah, the golf cart dude screwed up, but so did the ladies and their coaches.

1600m506pr:-/ wrote:

I'm probably a jerk. .

You're right.

But seriously, you can imagine that you'd do something different. But how about imagine this: You've never (or barely) seen the course before. The gun goes off, and you're racing your butt off. You're winded, but trying to maintain focus. In that super tough part of any distance race, far from the start but not yet near the finish, you're in the middle of a heated battle, concentrating on hanging on to the pack of runners you're running with. You get to a spot in the course where you think you're supposed to turn. But, a couple problems. An official is standing right there in the middle of the spot you thought you should turn. And the lead cart is plowing ahead, with the few runners in front of you. The whole pack you're with goes straight.

You're telling me you would say to yourself: "See ya' suckers! I'm going right past that official and taking the turn!" OK, maybe you do, I can't know. But I can tell you when my daughter got to that spot she thought "I guess I was wrong, the turn must be up ahead", and kept running for another 15-20 sec, following the race director's pace cart... until suddenly, all hell broke loose.

Funny, my first reaction wasn't to tell her she screwed up.

In fact she, her coach, and team are not really freaking out about it. Just saying, well, you were running great (whole team), so let's just take that and move on to the next race. This is just another story along the way.

PS Good thing they have practice before Nationals. It would have been tougher to take there. Although, I recall some instances of things like that happening (usually, lap mis-counts on indoor tracks).

Thanks-for-replay wrote:

Starting around 12th-15th, runners did not run extra distance, and runners from 9th or 10th to 12th probably didn't go far before learning of the turn - what does the video say about them?

Also, does the video give any indication of how runners got back on course? It seems they each took their own path...

.

People as far back as 130 or so were still missing the turn. They just were correcting themselves rather quickly. If the person in 15th got back on the course in 23 seconds after running by, many women were back on the correct path fairly quickly. You can not see runners rejoining the race anywhere but at the turn as the camera leaves the 3.9k leader from MIT and the camera switches back to the turn for a few seconds then pans about 20-30 feet up the correct route. Some reported to me runners were correcting by cutting through spectators and running a parallel tangent to the course. None of those runners caught up in any camera view and a member of the new lead pack (women missing turn and correcting first in 23 seconds or less) won the race.

The MIT woman lost 68 seconds and still ran under 22:00 (21:45). She was impacted the most. Anyone finishing in front of her was impacted less. With some people ahead of her that never missed the turn. The winner having corrected in approximately 23 seconds.

As I watch the video, I can't even tell where they were supposed to run. A pretty solid line of spectators, and I think a rope. A couple of points along the way you see people in bright yellow just standing there at what looks like a path. At one of them (bright yellow vest visible at race time 14:07 to 14:14) there appears to be a different color rope/ribbon, being held by the guy in the vest. I think that's where the cart, and runners, were supposed to turn? But I don't really know.

Also, as others have noted, it's clear that a LOT of other women are coming back from taking a wrong turn, even though it's also perfectly clear that the new "lead group" comprises runners who were just under 20th at 3.9k. So, some either took right turn or corrected quickly while others continued on wrong path...?

PS. Watching the race video, the Flotrack announcer NEVER figured out that this was a 6k rather than a 5k. Kept saying 5k over and over...