Sifan Hassan = GOAT! 3:51.95 FROM THE FRONT!!

Coevett wrote:

bartholomew_maxwell wrote:

Yeah..sure..whatever helps you get to sleep at night...A woman running 3:51 is doped to the gills but no one ever says a guy running 3:35 is doped. That's 16 seconds faster. The women's 800 meter record is 13 seconds slower than the men's and the women's 1500 meter record is 24 seconds slower. Why is it unfathomable for a woman to run 25 seconds slower than a man at 1500 meters? It's a huge gap and should probably be closer if anything.

This is a new one. Women's performances on the track should never be deemed suspicious unless they are actually faster than men.

I guess it was only a matter of time here.

Official LetsRun policy has always been that it's racist to question East African doped up times, now it's also 'sexist' to question East African women's doped up times.

Also, in fairness, gender or, more accurately hormonal levels exist on a continuum. It's not binary. No obviously some of the DSD athletes are quite far towards the "male" hormone profile. But what if you have a biological female that for someone reason has a ridiculously favorable hormone profile. What's to say she couldn't run much closer to what males can run? How do you draw the line?

Hmm. I guess if you go by odds then yes, because the odds are obviously FAR in favor that she is a doper because someone of that talent will obviously be exceptionally rare. At the same time, that level of talent would naturally find it's way to athletics of some kind.

And the truth of the matter is it's absolutely possible to have a runner with something like 3:28/12:20/25:50 for a guy. As I mentioned some posts ago, that's within normal, routine physiologic parameters. It would just be an atypical combination of an athlete who has it all: efficiency, VO2, fractional utilization. No mythological values or hypothetical ones needed. A VO2 max of 90, a fractional utilization about 88% and a top 10% efficiency would easily produce such times.

So again....my question. What if you are the athlete that has that kind of talent? Are you just boned?

95% of the people complaining about these female performances are men...actually I'd wager close to 99% of those complaining are men.

How much do you want to bed that no female runners on here are complaining about this woman's times? I'd bet a lot.

It's typically only men who question these fast performances, from a general running messageboard perspective.

Male insecurity and ego problems.

If it helps you sleep at night, she's only like 85 pounds so running faster than normal kinda comes with the territory...feel better?

Sifan can outrun you but you can probably lift more than her in the gym. There. You happy?

this and this wrote:

men have done more amazing things than Hasan.

Zatopek, 1952 summer Olympics, Wins 5k, 10k and marathon,( his first marathon). Sets Olympic records in all three events,

Also had to run a qualifying heat in the 5k there.

His times for 5k and 10k there were not much faster than what Hasan can run. Does anyone doubt that Hasan could run a 2:23 marathon in a few days?

Zatopek was just a better runner than everyone else then. Just like Spitz and Phelps were better swimmers.

So, ignoring possible doping, Hasan was just that much better than the runners she competed against here.

Note; I believe Zatopek was totally clean, but I have doubts about Hasan...

And what was the doping available to Zatopek in 1952? Must have been super-powerful for a man to run the 5k a bit faster than Obiri does today.

Sifansshass wrote:

Sifan wasn't a "decent national runner" in the Netherlands. If you followed running even a little during that time you'd have known she was top 5 in the world (with bad coaching).

Yeah - her coach wasn't up to Alberto's "standards".

Trackier wrote:

Platonic wrote:

Do people believe that she's clean?

C'mon...

You're not that dumb.

Hassan's breakdown

2019 3:51.95 Khalifa International Stadium, Doha (QAT) 05 OCT 2019

2018 3:57.41 Olympic Stadium, London (GBR) 22 JUL 2018

2017 3:56.14 Blankers-Koen Stadion, Hengelo (NED) 11 JUN 2017

2016 3:57.13 Paris (FRA) 27 AUG 2016

2015 3:56.05 Stade Louis II, Monaco (MON) 17 JUL 2015

2014 3:57.00 Paris (FRA) 05 JUL 2014

2013 4:03.73 Pontaise, Lausanne (SUI) 04 JUL 2013

2012 4:08.24 Bottrop (GER) 06 JUL 2012

That 3:52 was not that out of line:

Many in that race set huge PRs and National records

The Canadian, Stafford, ran 4:06 last year and went 3:56.12 - breaking the 35 + yr old Canadian record this year by 4.5 seconds. That was a 10 second improvement. She trained like a professional this year for the first time and this was a very well paced race for a fast time. If you say every top performance = someone cheating, you are wrong.

You don't know that. I can't wait to see her drop another 5 secs next year. The sky's the limit with NOP.

What I’ve Learned wrote:

There seem to be a lot of failed D1 runners and coaches that frequent these boards and immediately trash any great performance as doping, simply because they failed in their professional aspirations and are not as successful runners such as Hassan, in this case. Really sad, and one of the main reasons why this sport is not appealing to the masses.

For the record, Hassan is one of the last in this field I’d suspect of doping. WHAT A PERFORMANCE.

The textbook fan response for every off-the-charts achievement before the bust.

Not Fast wrote:

Agree with your comments.

Researched the weather of Hasan’s fastest performances:

3:51. Oct 05, 2018 Doha 87F, 47% Humidity

3:56. June 11, 2017 NED 68F, 73% Humidity

3:56 July 17, 2015 Monaco, 84F, 73% Humidity

Those of who run marathons know the direct impact of humidity on performances.

Women’s 400M hurdles, men’s 800m finals, 1500m Finals have shown some exceptional performance.

It’s unfortunate that Hassan is tied to Salazar. This puts a cloud over everything but we should look at the body of work over the last 5 years.....

The USADA was looking at Alberto's "body of work" over the last 4 years, when he was involved with doping. And how long has Hassan been with his team?

Houlihan ftw wrote:

good job shelby wrote:

Unlike you, Houlihan isn't a complete piece of sh1t.

Notice that she was the only athlete in the entire field that did so. She's class.

Same with Flojo's competitors at Seoul. They ignored her. Must have known something.

Exactly. Women didn't even have an olympic marathon until 1984. Women have more racing and training opportunities than ever before. The notion that her double was some super human effort beyond comprehension is just silly. In 1972, Frank Shorter finished 5th in the 10k and won the marathon. That's a double. Plus, he had to run a heat to get to the 10k final.

We've watched her several years. She's been close but often got outkicked. Now, she's got the strength to carry all that speed to the finish line. I love watching her. I have no doubt she's clean. It' s sad that an athlete follows all the protocols, trains properly, and breaks records - only to be called a cheater. She has to prove she's not a cheater - which is impossible. She could test clean until the end of time and posters on this board will never be convinced, including the 2 ringmasters of this lynch mob called letsrun.com.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Houlihan ftw wrote:

Notice that she was the only athlete in the entire field that did so. She's class.

Same with Flojo's competitors at Seoul. They ignored her. Must have known something.

If you're going to lie, make sure it's not on camera. Several other runners, including Kipyegon, hugged Hassan after the race.

Outliers don't stagnate at 3.56 for 5 years, then drop 5 seconds at a relatively advanced age.

This same phenomenon is happening in women's weightlifting. Incredible records being set. But this is because more and more women are lifting weights and as a result the potential talent has increased.

If all of the top NFL players suddenly decided to quit football and go into MMA, we'd probably find that the current crop of badasses are not as bad as we once thought. The average NFL player is more athletically gifted than your MMA fighters by a long shot.

I love this. We already have 8 pages of doping accusations against Hassan and about 40 against Alberto, the Svengali of NOP.

In the words of the great detective, Columbo, "we have a body and a suspect - but nobody's owning up". In time, in time, detective.

bladerunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Same with Flojo's competitors at Seoul. They ignored her. Must have known something.

If you're going to lie, make sure it's not on camera. Several other runners, including Kipyegon, hugged Hassan after the race.

They needed holding up. They were gassed.

Bart Bart Bart wrote:

bartholomew_maxwell wrote:

So what you're saying is you're the ultimate decider of the limits of human talent and potential right? Ever heard of an outlier? all of these super talented athletes are naturally outliers. And among them, some are just more extreme which is why only one person can be the world record holder...

Remember when Khalid Khannouchi ran 2:05 at Chicago, and how long it took for the 2:05 barrier to be broken in the men's marathon? As more people run a race and train at it, more talent gets revealed.

Outliers don't stagnate at 3.56 for 5 years, then drop 5 seconds at a relatively advanced age.

"Coaching". Whoops.

Armstronglivs wrote:

bladerunner wrote:

If you're going to lie, make sure it's not on camera. Several other runners, including Kipyegon, hugged Hassan after the race.

They needed holding up. They were gassed.

Now that's funny! Well done!

LM wrote:

Except the 10000 was easy as sh1t. 8500m, behind pacers, on a track, at slower than HM pace? Yea that's nothing. She ran a 95% 1500m off of 8500m of low threshold running.

3:51 is still damn fast, but it makes sense for a 14 low performer.

Now, Hassan is probably doping because she is as good as she is. Being in 14 low/3:50 shape, as a female is inherently suspect.

But...nothing amazing from a 1500m PB following 8k light tempo and a 95% three or four days before.

I'm glad someone on this thread was actually watching the races, and can reason sensibly.

I think you can argue both sides/cases. But I prefer to go with my gut and experience (over 40 years).

You just never see someone running a final with such control and ease. She seemed to be running a qualifying round. It was truly abnormal for the time/quality she showed. It's that simple for me. My shyte detector went off. I bet if you ask all other athletes in the field ... in private they are thinking the same.

it's a shame. You almost have to be juicing these days to "get it right".